Amongst the innumerable weaknesses and complaints from people regarding Spider-Man 3, one of the common irks with fans was how pathetic Mary Jane was in the film (well… actually… she’s been horrible in all the films). This struck up a conversation with a friend of mine who made this comments:
“You ever notice that most comic book movies screech to a painful halt whenever a female character comes on screen?”
At first I just objected to his generalization of female characters in these movies… but the more I thought about it… the more I began to agree with him. Now, don’t get me wrong… I’m NOT saying ALL, WITHOUT EXCEPTION female charcters in comic movies suck, but you’ve got to admit most of them do. Doesn’t matter if they’re one of the heroes, are the love interest, they generally end up sucking the life out of a movie. So why is that? I offer you my opinion on the matter:
1) Screenwriters just don’t seem to know how to write a strong female character
Like the topic itself, that statement is a bit of a generalization. For some reason, most of the female characters come off as weak and helpless in these flicks. Inevitably this forces the action/pace of the film to take a break to deal with the inadequacies of these characters. The aforementioned Mary Jane is kidnaped and dangled from a high place as a trap for Spider-Man in EVERY SINGLE SPIDER-MAN movie. We don’t expect these characters to fight the bad guys for the hero… but women are not the helpless little sniveling cry babies these movies make them out to be.
2) Love Interests
I’ve recently been comparing movies to meals. You expect and hope for different things from different types of meals. You expect different things from a Steak than you do from a fine bowl of ice cream… but you do have certain expectations for each of them. With your ice cream you enerally want sweet, creamy with just the right texture. You see what I’m saying. With Comic Book movies, we have certain sets of expectations that are different from other genres of films. There are exceptions for certain, but this is true in general. In our Comic Book films, nothing so irritates the rabid fan more than love interests. It’s so set into us that now the mere sight of a female character on screen often sends horrible shivers down our spine “Nope, Wolverine has to stop being bad ass now to take some time to try to woo the girl with his softer side”. And inevitably the love interest is always used for the same thing… to get kidnapped and dangled from a high place as a trap for the hero. YYAAWWNNN.
3) Let’s Talk about our feelings
Referencing back to the point about food and our expectations about this genre of film, one of the consequences of the weak writing of female characters is that whenever they’re on screen, they tend to pull out out of those very things we want in our comic book movies. When Lois Lane comes on screen, you know it’s not to say “Hey Superman, here’s the name of 4 bad guys whose ass I want you to seriously kick”. Nope, you know Lois is there to talk about her feelings… about how she felt when Superman went away… about how she wonders what Superman feels for her, about how it feels to be a single mom… about how it feels to be misunderstood. Basically, the female character generally are there to break us away from all the things we come to see in this genre.
4) Fighting crime is never a good date
Since Batman doesn’t go on patrol with his date that evening, you know that whenever the female character is around… ain’t nothing exciting is going to happen… unless they uses the old tired cliche mentioned in point #2
I’ll stop there for now. So what other points am I missing? Why else to female characters in Comic genre films suck? What are some exceptions to this? (I thought Jennifer Connelly’s character in Hulk was a good solid character)
Nobody goes to a comic book movie to see the love story. NOBODY. That’s like saying that people go to Central Park to see the dogs piss and shit all over the grass. No, you don’t go to see that, but it’s still there, and it still sucks.
“A more precise topic would have been:
Women In Superherocomic Book Movies – Why They Suck.”
–Totally agree with you there…how about Sin City??? Each book and basically the movie have women as the heroines and villains, not a single helpless victim in the bunch.
and how about Ghost World? Two great deep female characters that are completely different, written by a man no less?
Tank Girl is still a guilty pleasure of mine
Evey in V for Vendetta?
lets be a bit more specific with the title
“I do want to point out, however, that Mary Jane has ALWAYS played a huge role in the Spiderman comics. Lois Lane has ALWAYS played a huge role in the Superman comics. Cyclops’ relationship with Jean Grey has ALWAYS been pivotal to the X-Men comics. Batman and Selina Kyle… and so on and so forth.
If comic book movies are based on comic books and we all complain about not staying true enough to the source material then we have to accept the fact that the love interest has been integral to almost all superheroes.”
I 100% agree with you Jay.
I think they justed screwed up the character of Mary Jane, who is a tormented person from her bad childhood and hides it with the party girl and supermodel persona to this whiny bitch who whats to be large an in charge.
@TomShot
I mentioned the Sin City gals in an earlier post, and how even THEY have to get rescued by the big badass MEN. Gail needs Dwight, Goldie/Wendy need Marv, and Nancy needs Hartigan.
My point was not that I think Dunst is ugly . I pay for those movie tickets so I am entitled to my opinion whether an actress is ugly for the part or not. In which case my opinion is, Dunst is ugly for MJ. Notice I didn’t say she was ugly as a cheerleader, or even Marie Antoinette, because as silly as the movie was, Dunst did fit the character somewhat. But Dunst is not MJ. SM3 might be a sore button for you, but I am entitled to my opinion. She ruined the movie for me. Yes I can blame that on Raimi and whomever was behind his back when he made that decision, but for me, I just fully hated the fact that I think Dunst is a no-talent actress who gets the part for god knows what.
“I mean, if Dunst started going around calling other people ugly, she’s be called out as an awful bitch, but here we are from the safety of our living rooms calling other people ugly and its fine.”
You know why it’s fine.. because she’s in the business where the players *are* judged by how they look like. They get paid millions and people can call them whatever they want in the safety of their homes. Part of the business. To insinuate I should be called an awful bitch because I said she’s ugly, well, she’s an actress. All part of the job.
I’m just a no one calling her ugly from my living room while she’s laughing all the way to the bank.
“”shes too ugly to be X” seems a bit unfair to me in judging a performance.”
Guess what.. I did say I thought that she couldn’t act for shite in the movie. What Kristina said, MJ is supposed to be way outta Spidey’s league.
Norton and Connelly? Totally believable. Maguire and Dunst? Actually, he could score way higher than that, so it is unrealistic to me. This is the last I’m gonna say anything about SM3. Seems like the people who liked the movie just can’t accept that there are people who didn’t like the movie. Got tedious a month ago. Now it just seems silly. Go ahead and get upset to my posts, it’s just an opinion. But still a valid one at that. I could get upset to the fact that you called a character I loved, Gorgo, an obnoxious cunt. But I didn’t. To each their own.
Fables by Bill Willingham. Yeah it’s neither a movie or a comic book comic book i.e. it is a graphic novel, but its leading heroines kick ass. Someone needs to make a movie of Fables. Zooey Deschanel for Snow White, and Richard Armitage for Bigby.
Also, I am a chick and I HATE girl characters in almost every comic book, action-adventure, and fantasy movie… everything that’s not a Disney film or a romcom. It’s sad.
Though yeah, Michelle Pfeiffer in Batman was brilliant.
How can K Dunst not realise how awful she is?
What about the lovely ladies in SIN CITY? I also have strong feelings about Kim Basinger in……OH YEAH……….WAIT FOR IT…………..COOL WORLD! Yeah! You all forgot that movie!
Most women in comic book movies do suck.
I think one of the reasons why the leading ladies in comic book movies do badly is because they are getting too much ‘attention’ in the movie than the should.
Kristina, I see what you’re saying about ‘out of his league’ but what I specifically mean is theres a level of believability. I mean replace her with say Jessica Alba and that surpasses my level of belief. I never thought of Mary Jane as supposedly being ‘the hottest thing ever’ – I mean sure in comics appearances are exaggerated, but by comics standards Mary Jane isnt much hotter than most other girls if at all. Whats important is that shes ‘the hottest thing ever’ to Peter.
@Goon
You said that a hotter MJ would be out of Peter Parker’s league? The whole point of MJ is that she IS out of his league. She’s supposed to be the hottest, coolest thing EVER.
I agree with Sealer/Darren that around half of the women characters in superhero movies are OK; it’s stupid to generalize. Also, I don’t understand what girls have against Kirsten Dunst. I think she’s average looking, but she’s a great actress. Have you actually seen her in The Virgin Suicides or Mona Lisa Smile, for example? I didn’t mind her in Spiderman, but she wasn’t quite fit for the part. Anyway, I think it’s more jealousy, for some reason or another, than anything else.
“Gorgo made the impenetrable shield looked like it weigh about 3 pounds when she handed it to The Gorgeousness that is Butler, lol. I loved her. I read the comic since, and she was just *that* cool in the comics. I liked how she did NOT cry in the movie, or some eye-rolling from me would’ve ensued. She basically told him not to come back a loser, if he does then he might as well be killed in a battle. URRRRR!!!! Female worthiness, recognise. AND she offed the traitor-but-still-kinda-hot Theron, so URRRR!”
While many like her, I thought her character was an obnoxious cunt. I hated every second she was on screen. But I dont blame the actress, I just think the character sucked.
Sorry, I have all these tangential points, another of which being after reading this that well, a lot of the top actresses that would actually perhaps bring more to some of these roles, are, well…
TOO SMART TO DO THEM.
and by this I mean that if they get caught up in some movie franchise, it could hurt their dramatic career. Could you possibily picture someone like Kate Winslet in one of these movies? Not because they’re out of place, but because if you’re actually a top level actress like her, you dont want to be some second fiddle girlfriend, you want to do movies where you can show your chops and be the lead. the males in these superhero movies may spit out one liners, but A list male actors have much more incentive to appear in these films than A list actresses.
Case in point though – Anjelina Jolie. While I’ve always found her obnoxious, I can’t deny that she’s got some real acting talent. But after the Tomb Raider movies, she’s just Lara Croft. If she’d never made those movies, I could watch A Mighty Heart and say “yep, thats an A List Actress in an A List dramatic Role” and not “Lara Croft is trying to do drama again and I cant get past it”
I was talking about this with a fellow film geek at work, and he brought up the ladies of Sin City. Even though most of them can hold their own, even THEY need rescuing by the guys. Even Gail, badass as she was, needed Dwight to bail her out. Not very encouraging.
I just finished reading most of the posts in full now
I’m for the most part on camp with Seeley and Yodaf here. if you want to blame anyone, lets blame the source material, the fanboys, and maybe to some extent the artists who draw these characters a certain way that forces studios hand into inappropriate film casting.
On the opposite end, I get upset at posts like Naughts who have to support themselves saying “she’s ugly”. 1) thats subjective 2) it just proves the point about artists forcing casting decisions to fit appearance rather than acting/character 3) that just reminds me of the whole Boyle post from last week. I mean, if Dunst started going around calling other people ugly, she’s be called out as an awful bitch, but here we are from the safety of our living rooms calling other people ugly and its fine. maybe thats a tangent, but “shes too ugly to be X” seems a bit unfair to me in judging a performance. I mean if women had say over these comic book movies then I dont think Edward Norton would be the Hulk, and I certainly dont think we’d have had two Batman movies with Michael Keaton.
They could have gotten a lot spicier more traditionally sexy actress to play Rogue, but they didnt. They got someone who more or less knows how to act, and it was the right decision. Dunst is not an amazing actress, but I think she fits a) how Mary Jane naturally seemed to be (aka no acting required almost) b) Raimi’s sense of casting c) just pretty enough to still be attainable for Maguire’s Parker. Sorry kids, a fiery redhead like Alicia Witt, Isla Fisher, etc – is out of the Maguire-as-Parker believability range, just as Connelly seems in Eric Bana’s league, but would be out of believability range for Ed Norton.
“I just dont think it should take up more of the movie than the superhero himself (ala Spiderman 3)”
I think if you were to actually add up screentime you’d find that Mary Jane has more screentime in Spiderman 1 than either of the other two. But I think people look past it because it was a) the first movie and b) well, people wanted their Spiderman movie so much that a lot of people looked past the faults of the first film and raised their expectations higher for each film after it.
I just dont get that about people and sequels sometimes. People get amped up, more people see them on their opening weekends than the ones before it. It seems sometimes people get more amped up for more and put too much stock in what it needs/has to be, whereas I tend to expect less from each sequel. I mean, not to get off track, but the flying around the city in SM3 is just as impressive as in SM1, but people take what they already know the movies can do for granted, expect more, and if cant give more, then all of a sudden its all shit, and they look past whatever is good there they’d otherwise be so amped up about had it been the only film of the series they had ever seen.
Sorry, sidetracked. I just really hate how people hype up sequels only to knock them down, and that people should walk in with different expectations than they do.
Ummmm. Salty. Wha-Wha-Wha-What?!?!
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Terminator was a good choice because that franchise has been on both sides of todays issue.
Oh, and by the way…
Salt IS fantastic on steaks.
“Need” is a question of opinion.
… but like the banner says, The Home of Movie Opinions.
I knew my bringing the Terminator into it would have you raise the “Thats not the genre I was talking about” flag. That’s why I tried to be clear that I wasnt attacking the article perse, but more the attitude of people who were saying that it doesnt work in sci-fi. Ever. And that we should never have romance in sci-fi or comic book movies, ever.
Just to be clear, I agree that 99% of the time the romance subplot is very poorly executed in superhero movies. That being said, I think that if done right (once again, a question of opinion), they can add immensely to the overall product. I’m not arguing the opinion that most of the time it does fall under the points that you listed, I’m just saying that I’m not against the idea.
I do want to point out, however, that Mary Jane has ALWAYS played a huge role in the Spiderman comics. Lois Lane has ALWAYS played a huge role in the Superman comics. Cyclops’ relationship with Jean Grey has ALWAYS been pivotal to the X-Men comics. Batman and Selina Kyle… and so on and so forth.
If comic book movies are based on comic books and we all complain about not staying true enough to the source material then we have to accept the fact that the love interest has been integral to almost all superheroes.
Anyway…
I like the idea of the romantic subplot, I just dont think it should take up more of the movie than the superhero himself (ala Spiderman 3). I dont have a problem with the damsel in distress and the hero getting the girl in the end. I actually appreciate the idea and see a “need” for it. That in and of itself doesnt mean that I can’t see the faults with the way it is executed in most comic book movies.
I dont know… I guess in the end, it just doesnt bother me as much as it does you. I see the same shortcomings and faults that you do, it just doesnt affect me the way it does you.
Just my thoughts, as well.
I mean no offense.
btw, I’d like to speak as someone with two little sisters who are way into comic book movies (they own pretty much every one good or bad it seems) who really actually love a lot of these characters we’re spitting on here.
Please consider this is the internet, and a movie site and a thread most likely dominated by men/boys who dont like that icky romance shit, when theres clearly an audience out there that actually does go for it.
And finally, a really strong female character/love interest that came to mind I’d take issue with anyone trashing (even though she has powers so its not the same)… is Selma Blair in Hellboy. Don’t you dare tell me that wasnt perfect casting carried out exquisitely.
Well I guess I just dont understand what people want out of a non-powers female character. I mean, I’ll bring up Buffy again and eventually the girl characters couldnt just be characters anymore, they had to have powers or be half demon or something because even Whedon isnt good enough to keep coming up with material for them.
I know enough about my Superman and Spiderman to know that for better or worse, the same relationship problems keep popping up, and thats the way its been through every incarnation, and each of the films of both of these series tend to stick to the old school ‘golden age’ method of storytelling with these characters. I just accept it, and tend to enjoy the trappings of a relationship and how they affect Parker/Kent regardless of whether or not i’m in love with their significant other. I just dont really know what people want from these characters. They’re given about as much sass and personality as I think you can get out of a secondary player. I mean, take Katie Holmes’ Rachel Daws character. People seemed to consider it pointless, when even in the first viewing, and as much as I was really goddamned annoyed with the TomKat stories at the time, I thought that character was a pretty strong slap in the face compliment to Bruce Wayne. The only problem to me is Holmes’ physical presence is slight enough that I guess for some it may not seem believable enough. But thats moviemaking, and the fanboys would be just as upset if they put some tough butch woman in that place instead, or if in X-Men they brought in an older tough woman like Angela Bassett or even fucking Phylicia Rashad as Storm. It’s a catch-22 – a draw who the fanboys want to drool over vs. someone who serves the character a little better. I mean, you have to admit theres rarely that perfect middle ground – theres not many people that can fill these roles, actresses like Famke Janssen or Franka Potente, out there.
Goon
No doubt we mainly agree with you, it’s just lately women/romance is dead weight to the content of the superhero/sci-fi film. “IF” it is in the flick it would be nice to have it written smartly, pertinant to the situation, ect, ect.
I was thinking about this last night, but from an opposite perspective, as I watched Batman Begins for only the 2nd time.
“why do people bash Katie Holmes so much?”
I mean, I’m not saying she was fantastic or the reason to watch the film by any stretch, however her performance is competent, and in actuality its Cillian Murphy (who is brilliant throughout most of the film) that is the only one with moments that bring me out of story with the acting. (think the scene of “… THE BAT MAN!!!!!” and what he says afterwards)
Regardless of what you think of the actual roles, I think most of these females, save a couple exceptions, are just fine. They arent meant to be amazing characters on their own so much as they are meant to serve as either plot devices or more importantly, to bring elements out of the hero’s character – and on this level I can’t think of any non-powers female character in these movies I’ve had a problem with.
It’s only been in a few of the female characters WITH powers that I think I’ve ever found a problem. ie. Halle Berry in the first XMen film (I think shes fine in the others and is attacked more in remembrance of what she had originally done), Jennifer Garner in Elektra, Berry again in Catwoman, and Uma Thurman in Batman and Robin. Ultimately the inability of the male screenwriters to bring any depth to their characters to me, is their downfall, and in the end they just come across as one dimensional.
Maybe you want to apply that thinking to Mary Jane or Lois Lane, but I think its a different challenge. Writing an average female is different than someone who is supposed to be feminine and yet come across as a threat. As much as I’m not really a Joss Whedon fan, this to me was probably the best thing he’s done with that Buffy series – to me it wasnt the witty barbs, but taking a seemingly frail young woman and making you take her seriously. All other successes in female characters seems to be aided by either burying them under scary makeup (Mystique) or just making their character so batshit insane with powers that you HAVE to (Phoenix)
Women shouldn’t exist in comic books, the end.
I meant “Conner’s L.T.” in the last line but then I don’t spelcek!!!!
Jay
John beat me to the punch, I swear he read my mind that was about word for word what I was going to say.
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Ditto?!?!
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Terminator 1 Yes needed for the plot
Terminator 3 No not needed, hell could have been a guy character minus a romance ofcourse and had been Conner LT in the future.
Hey Jay,
The problem with your Terminator example is that it doesn’t apply. It’s a whole different ball game. That “love interest” was actually a major key point of the plot. It was an essential element of the whole story arc. Generally speaking, the love interests never are
The question isn’t “execution”… it’s more a question of “need”. In 99% of the comic genre films, the love interest isn’t “needed”. They end up being there just for the sake of being there which causes the problems I described above.
The love interest generally does not fit well with the conic genre (there are always exceptions… however Hollywood treats it as the rule) just as salt (which is fantastic on steak) doesn’t go with Ice Cream. Just my thoughts
Jennifer Connolly in the Hulk. I was thinking she was the best woman actress in a superhero movie EVER but then you had to go and call it.
I would have her be in The Incredible Hulk if not for the confusion it would cause.
And Ditto Shane Razey! WE DON’T NEED THAT BULL IN OUR FREAKING SUPERHERO MOVIES!–RETARDS
Female characters in comic book movies suck because the movies are made for greasy teenagers boys who will have their masturbation fantasies destroyed if they are confronted with real women with geniune thoughts and feelings. The studios know this so they play to their weak sexual fantasies.
I pose this question to all the haters of love-interest subplots in sci-fi or superhero or comic based movies…
What would have been the point of the first Terminator movie if not for the love story between Kyle Reese and Sarah Conner?
You may say “Yeah, they get it right sometimes”…
Bit if this is true, then the truth of it is that you dont hate the idea itself, you just hate the poor execution of said idea.
Making blanket statements like Keep Romance Out Of Our Sci-Fi Movies is kind of ridiculous (no offense, Shane. as I normally agree with you), because when done right they can really add to your overall emotional investment.
John may chime in and say that the fact that they’re doing it wrong was the whole point of the article, but some of you guys are saying you dont want it at all. Which I think is crazy.
As far as Kirsten Dunst goes…
I’m not a hater like most fanboys and geeks are (I agree with most everything Seeley said) but I will admit that her portion of Spiderman 3 (of which there was an excessive amount) almost ruined the movie. I say “almost” because… well… I’m a geek and I will find something to enjoy in most comic book movies.
But, I cant blame Kirsten Dunst for that. The fault for that lies squarely on the shoulders of Alvin Sargeant and Mr Raimi himself.
That’s right, I said it. That movie (basically) failed because of Sam Raimi, not the actress who played Mary Jane.
However, I must admit that even though I didnt dislike the casting of Kirsten Dunst as Mary Jane as much as most seem to I did always imagine the character with a little more… how shall I put this… a little more va-va-voom. If you know what I’m sayin’.
Anyway,
My point is, hate the poorly executed version of the idea, not the idea itself.
Staline hodge wieghed in on this situation before. She had a few things to say about something like this. http://www.candicomics.com/blogger/2007/05/warning-ranting-begins.html
the x-men movies john……the x-men movies… strongest women in history.
and say what you want about ghostriders crappyness…but the female lead was strong as well.
This is a case of:
“Hey you got peanut butter in my chocolate!”
“Noway you got chocolate on my peanut butter!”
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Meaning:
Romantic films like Howard’s End or The English Patient don’t shove a superhero into the plot, so to all those Sci-Fi/Superhero movie makers:
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FUCKING QUIT PUTTING BULLSHIT FUCKING ROMANCE SITUATIONS IN OUR G-DAMNED SCI-FI/SUPERHERO MOVIES!!!!!!!!!! IF I WANT A FUCKING ROMANCE I GO SEE THAT MOVIE INSTEAD!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Savvy?
The love interest is a common thing in society and in film, yes some people may find it annoying, but I find this issue ridiculous.
Holy god I never thought of Billy Corgan in a drag *gasp* SO TRUE!!!
Like dude, seriously, I am much hotter than Dunst so if Spidey gets tired of saving her ass because of her Too Stupid To Live antics, he can always come over to my place. I will *cure* you from whatever magic her vajayjay’s working, Spidey! *snort*
@Naught
Agreed. Especially about The Gorgeousness:)
Kirsten Dunst is not worth getting your ass kicked for. Who the hell would fight to save the life of Billy Corgan in drag?
Kristina,
Gorgo made the impenetrable shield looked like it weigh about 3 pounds when she handed it to The Gorgeousness that is Butler, lol. I loved her. I read the comic since, and she was just *that* cool in the comics. I liked how she did NOT cry in the movie, or some eye-rolling from me would’ve ensued. She basically told him not to come back a loser, if he does then he might as well be killed in a battle. URRRRR!!!! Female worthiness, recognise. AND she offed the traitor-but-still-kinda-hot Theron, so URRRR!
Sealer,
I agree with most everything you say, but I will tell you why it is that I (if not most women) hate hate hate hate Kiki Dunst as MJ.
1. She can’t act for shit.
2. She doesn’t bring any depth whatsoever to the MJ character. That could be attributed to her acting, so yeah.
3. MJ is this hot piece of ass in the comics, and what do we get in the movie.. a snaggle toothed greasy looking actress with blank blank eyes. Yes I think she’s ugly. Keep in mind that I’m not 100% str8, this is not some random bitchiness, I really do think she’s ugly. So about the ‘looks first’ and talents second, she doesn’t fit in either category, so excuse me if I’m flabbergasted as to why she’s still getting roles. I know, I know some people think she’s attractive, and to each their own, and this reason could be very fluffy, but it is still a valid one nonetheless. I don’t to see ugly women on summer blockbuster.
I can go on til morning, but Snaggle Tooth really is not worth that much effort..
Could it be that in most cases the source material itself, comic books, are to blame? It never seemed like the majority of female characters had any acutal depth or value in the first place. As you say John, in many cases women exist to serve the role of a plot device, a complication in the life of the super hero, and are never given any real depth of character. As for love, well, I think this is a problem with comics again. If love interests were developed in an intersting and believable fashion then they would be fine, but they rarely are.
That said, as others mentioned you have the case of X-Men where female characters are themselves superheroes. Well…to be honest, in that case I found the male and female characters pretty much on par for the most part…I never liked any of them. Other than maybe wolverine to some extent, all the characters were cardboard cutouts. There were just too many people to develop any one of them in an intersting fashion. So, for me the women were bad in that film but no worse than the men. I can’t really see how storm is any better or worse than cyclops for example in any of these movies.
This isn’t a problem for books in general in my opinion, but in the world of comics it is.
Seriously, I LOVE her. She doesn’t cry and whine when her man has to go kick some ass. Even better, she HANDS HIM HIS FUCKING SHIELD AND TELLS HIM TO GO KICK SOME ASS. She rules!
Why can’t they all be like Queen Gorgo in 300? WHY?!
wow,you sumed up everything a comic book fan thinks!
Whirlwind time. Run for cover.
I strongly disagree with the majority of this post.
Although I would have preferred Gwen Stacey being napped by ex (?) Venom/Brock and Mary saves the other woman’s butt…(kind of like Catherine Zeta Jones doing SOMETHING in ‘Mask Of Zorro) I **never** had a problem with Dunst as MJ. I don’t get why people seem to hate her. Maybe folks were ticked that Alicia Witt didn’t get the part, who knows.
A lot of folks hate hate hate Halle Berry as Storm in the X-Men film. I never did, and it further alienates me from the moronic fanboy comics geeks who hate every damned thing and every damned casting choice…yeah, okay, she stank as Catwoman. But in Batman Returns….Michelle Pfiffer was outstanding.
Yes, it would seem Michelle, Cameron Diaz, Selma Blair, Blade’s N’Bushe Wright, and actresses connected to X-Men – or the Lois Lanes up to the current Kate, seem to be the exception. Gee, isn’t that at least half?
Consider, if you will, the film Daredevil. In the studio cut, Murdock stays with Elektra instead of beating up a thug as Daredevil. The two have a steamy fling. In the FAN LOVED director’s cut it has Murdock leaving Elektra, they don’t get laid, and Elektra is more of a side story than (doomed) love intrest. Yet everyone loves Jen Garner. Couple of years pass, we get ‘Elektra’, and it’s a piece of nice looking but moldy cheese.
I think the “geeks” whined too much about Katie Holmes in ‘Batman Begins’. I think they whined too much over Dunst in ‘Spider-Man’. They can whine about Howard as Gwen, though… or there is such a thing as just being in a horrible movie. Uma & Alicia & three seconds of Vivica, that means you.
What I’m saying is unpopular, I know. But when I say get over yourselves, I’ll wear the badge of Mister Unpopular with pride.
-Sealer
A more precise topic would have been:
Women In Superherocomic Book Movies – Why They Suck.
And this is not just a problem of comic books specifically. Even books written by women have very weak heroines. Go figure. We even need to dumb ourselves down in books.
Honestly… I liked Teri Hatcher as Lois Lane. Really.
And I liked Selma Blair as Hellboy’s gf. Yes yes, he had to save her, blah blah blah, but she didn’t have ‘helpless heroine’ aura in that role.
I might find more but I need some time to think.
The written character is obviously part of the problem, but this also alludes to a greater Hollywood actress problem. Since actresses in Hollywood are judged by their looks first and talent second, female characters on the whole are naturally going to come off as weaker on the whole than those of male actors, where talent is able to compensate for average looks.
Considering that most comic book females, whether they be superheros themselves or love interests, are drawn even more disproportionately attractive, that furthers the extent to which producers must loosen acting standards in trade for appearance. Since it seems rare (but not impossible) to find a Hollywood actress with both great acting ability and supernatural beauty, we’re usually going to be left with fairly shallow female characters in comic movies.
I agree, and this is why I felt that Spidey was such a let down for me. The amount of time spent on her sub-story was a waste and could of and should have be cut way down – not completely mind you. That would have gone a long way twards improving the movie.
Lois is and was dumbed down way too much for Superman, though I think it was miss casting more so than the writing. Louis should be head strong and self reliant or she would have died 5years before Superman ever came back.
Famke Janssen in the XMen series was better than average. She also was given more to do than love interest.
Much better than Halle Berry to be certain.