I loved The Muppets when I was a little kid. Man I would watch them every chance I had. The first couple of films still make me laugh like an idiot whenever I catch them on TV some night. Good times.
The the muppets have lost a lot of their luster. Did anyone ever see the new show? Anyone? I rest my case.
The good folks over at Filmfodder brought up an interesting thought today that I’ve thought about myself over the last couple of years. I totally believe that we are soon going to be seeing a Muppets movie where all the characters are computer generated. Laugh if you will at first… but think about it. I really think the day is coming. And probably sooner than you may think.
Frank Oz recently said in an interview that he thinks the new digital Yoda is far superior than the old “muppet” version of the Jedi Master. Oz went as far as to say that the muppet version of Yoda look “archaic”. Can anyone else see the writing on the wall?
I’m the first one to stand up and say that progress is not always a good thing… however… let me stand up and make myself a target for all you Muppet purists out there (and remember… I’m a muppet fan). I would be very interested in seeing a live action Muppet movie where the Muppet characters themselves are done digitally. I think it holds a lot of potential. But like most things, that potential hinges on the “if it’s done right” factor. Because it could also be a mess.
So what do you think? Is it time to try a CG Muppet movie? Or is it time to just let the old faithful characters just die a natural death (which is where they seem to be heading these days).
Story story story. If the muppets are done with puppets or animated with CG it won’t matter if the story sucks.
Oz may be right, Yoda may look better in CG (I don’t really agree) but he had a lot more life as a puppet. Frank Oz was more in tune with who Yoda was and how he should act. The CG Yoda broke character way too much for me to be impressed. Not the animator’s fault, but the director’s. Besides Oz alwayse hated doing Yoda, I’m sure he said that stuff so he wouldn’t never have to do the puppet again.
Yes there could be an all CG muppet movie, but why bother. Seems like a waist of time and money. If your going to go to all that work, come up with something origanal.
the best line in this thread isn’t mine…
“make something quality instead of turning the current garbage into 3-d garbage”
thats it right there. hammer it home – the Muppets biggest problem is the stories they are telling, not the quality of the characters. if the characters are ‘fading away’, its not because they’re puppets, its because they’re just making remakes of old movies with puppets instead of anything original. Muppet Christmas Carol, Muppets Wizard of Oz, a Muppet Christmas Movie based on ‘its a wonderful life’ and Muppet Treasure Island… hmmm… what do they have in common? the only exception is Muppets from Space, which of all of those is my favorite since it tells a Muppet story where the Muppets are playing themselves, just like the old movies did.
I think Goon is so much more right than John. Excellent argument that I think you’ve solidly won quite handily.
Muppets in CG? Yuk. What would be the point?
I would write more, but this is kinda getting me worked up and I’d hate to trounce on our esteemed leader tonight. It’s kinda like playing golf with the boss – sometimes you have to throw your game a bit so you don’t make him look TOO bad LOL.
PS – as nice looking as the new Yoda is, and even though I’m one of the defenders of Episode 3… the original puppet Yoda had better interactions with the other characters, and if Frank Oz things otherwise he’s high.
“There is just no good reason this shouldn’t be tried.”
lets take this back to a base level. the biggest priority is the writing, NOT how it is presented visually. the biggest criticisms of the past few muppet movies has had nothing to do with the puppetry, but everything to do with the storytelling.
“Are you saying the character of TOy Story had no soul??? Are you saying the characters of the incredibles had no soul? Are you saying Gollum had no soul??? That’s ridiculous.”
the current voice cast of the Muppets, honestly, dont have the ability to convey the ‘spirit’ of the characters without actually controlling the puppets. the voice work most agree is one of the biggest obstacles to overcome currently. Steve Whitmire, with all due respect, is not Tom Hanks, an Oscar winning actor who can breathe life to a character.
and only Pixar if you ask me, has been able to really convey the ‘soul’ of a character. Dreamworks et al fail at life, and I don’t think theres any doubt that these movies would NOT be done by Pixar, or Weta, or Lucasfilm.
the Casablanca analogy still stands to me John, you’re trying to stretch this into about being a franchise or a remake, when I’m flat out contesting the assertion that good characters are good characters, regardless of the medium. You’re mischaracterizing my statements.
“Dude… you’re using your own assumtions as proof of your arguments”
do you disagree with the Wallace and Gromit assumption? you think that would be just as impressive in CGI? I’m telling you man, things that would not be impressive and cool in one medium are way more impressive and cool in another. look at the stunts in kung fu in certain Asian films vs. some of these North American ‘matrix’ wannabes where they use fancy camera tricks and CGI to make it look like Ben Affleck is a badass. Which is more impressive? the simplicity of “ong bak” or bruce lee or even jackie chan movies are more impressive, and someone looking to see a fight scene is more likely to prefer the latter over Daredevil.
Likewise, a real Muppet fan wants to see the characters AS PUPPETS, doing things only puppets can do, and be captured by the interaction of these puppets with people, how you can accept these puppets as living things. with CGI in a way its too easy and a different set of expectations are there, and if they actually do manage to make a character believable with these people, its still less impressive because its CGI and thats whats expected with CGI now.
Frankly, they could go and make Kermit the most realistic Gollum-esque looking Muppet ever, and I still would never be as impressed as the bicycle scene from those early Muppet movies, period. The way they manage to perform giant Muppets like Sweetums and Thog is way more impressive than a computer version could ever be, and there’s nothing that could convince me otherwise.
Hey Goon,
Dude… you’re using your own assumtions as proof of your arguments:
“VERY SIMPLE things are much more impressive and charming in different mediums. Look at wallace and Gromit. Would some of that animation be more impressive in CGI? NO.”
and…
“you can put it in the hands of CGI and take what soul is left and throw it out the window.”
Are you saying the character of TOy Story had no soul??? Are you saying the characters of the incredibles had no soul? Are you saying Gollum had no soul??? That’s ridiculous.
You also said:
“Just because you havent been up to speed of it doesnt mean the Muppet franchise is dead, John.”
If someone has to be “up to speed” to know the Muppets even exist anymore… then that just proves my point.
You also said:
“I compare to Casablanca because of your assertion that ‘good characters work in any medium’. I’m just saying that its obvious that classic drama films wouldn’t make a good CGI movie, so your statement doesnt fly with me.”
Did I ever once suggest REMAKING the original Muppet Movie? Did I suggest REMAKING Muppets Take Manhattan? No. I’m not talking about REMAKING anything. I’m not talking about remaking any prior muppet work at all. I agree those should be left alone… but…
All I’m suggesting is to for NEW PROJECTS, trying a new medium… just like they did with 2D animation in The Muppet Babies TV show. That was new… and IT WORKED! It was highly rated and enjoyed pretty decent success. So I ask you… why not try 3D as well?
And you mentioned Frank Oz… do I need to remind you that this whole thing was started by Oz’s statements that new Digital Yoda was far superior to the muppet yoda… and that he thought the new Digital Yoda made the muppet format look “archaic”.
Look to sum up:
1) The Muppets are classic
2) The existing Muppets works should NOT be remade
3) The Muppets popularity and success pale to it’s former glory
4) The Muppets DID try a new medium with 2D animation and it worked
5) I’m not suggest throwing out the puppets
6) It’s time to try a muppets project with 3D characters
There is just no good reason this shouldn’t be tried. It doesn’t mess with the older work. It doesn’t replace the puppets (just as the 2d experiemnt didn’t replace them). Heck, you can alway do more puppet stuff at the same time.
There is no decent argument made here as to why they shouldn’t at least TRY this. They have nothing to lose.
Yes… it could very well fail. But so what? No guts no glory.
Hey, guys, why can’t they be CGI puppets? I mean, think about it. You could have them computer animated and still move around like puppets and have barely visible CGI strings attatched to their arms?
BTW, the above paragraph is a joke. Its to show that this argument is stupid. regardless of what CGI stuff comes out, they will still be remembered as puppets.
“The muppets were not endeared to us based on the fact that they were puppets.”
I even take issue with this. the puppetry of the Muppets, the more I learn about it… is impressive, and even as a child I was impressed, moreso than cartoons.
If Muppets became CGI, you’d see Rowlf’s, Kermit’s, Piggy’s, etc, eye pupils move for the first time. weird facial expressions. The Muppets have done so well because they made the most of their limitations. remember when the Muppets rode bicycles? that captured a charm that you couldnt recreate by doing it in CGI, if you CGI’d the Muppets riding bikes, who cares? thats not impressive, thats expected.
VERY SIMPLE things are much more impressive and charming in different mediums. Look at wallace and Gromit. Would some of that animation be more impressive in CGI? NO. In reverse, would I like Shrek better if it was classically animated? I actually would, because I dont think it really needed to be CGI in the first place.
sometimes less is more, and the Muppets is probably one of the biggest/best examples of this axiom.
PS – I picked up a copy of ‘eye weekly’ and there was an ad for a Toronto audition looking for new puppeteers to work for Henson…
so don’t expect a change from puppeteering anytime soon.
also, the Muppet movies that have come out, have made money. Not feature theatre Disney money, but as good if not better than the direct to DVD sequels.
the problem lately is in the writing, NOT the style. Changing to CGI isnt going to make them fresher, hipper, or better movies. better stories are the FIRST priority – a new look is the LAST.
“So in the hands of a competent VFX and 3D animation studio yes… yes they could do them as well.”
but it wont John, it won’t. Disney can’t even make Chicken Little look up to par with Pixar, so what chance to the Muppets have.
“But the fact of the matter is they are NOT a healthy franchise. They aren’t even a shadow of their former popularity and media power.”
yes, because Henson is dead. Frank Oz is on other projects. It can never be back to what it was, because its not the same people. So you can have the performers you have now who have worked with Henson since the golden years, like Steve Whitmire, do the best they can, or you can put it in the hands of CGI and take what soul is left and throw it out the window.
I compare to Casablanca because of your assertion that ‘good characters work in any medium’. I’m just saying that its obvious that classic drama films wouldn’t make a good CGI movie, so your statement doesnt fly with me.
like others have said, the big reason a lot of stuff hasnt been produced has simply been there hasnt been a solid buyer behind him until recently. at least hold out your judgment on the value of the franchise till the new TV show comes out in 2006. but you mischaracterize what they’re doing by reducing it to commercials. even though they’re not up to par with the old movies (although Muppets From Space in my opinion, is), they are still producing movies and specials regularly. if you havent been to muppetcentral.com lately, theres several, not one, several, major projects on the way.
Just because you havent been up to speed of it doesnt mean the Muppet franchise is dead, John.
Hey Goon
So you’re comparing a 1 shot non-franchized movie like Casablanca to an ongoing multi-medium franchise property like The Muppets? You don’t see how ridiculous that is?!?!
They couldn’t do The Muppets in 3D CGI as well as Gollum or Yoda? Who says that? The Gollum and Yoda technologies are now 2-4 years old. So in the hands of a competent VFX and 3D animation studio yes… yes they could do them as well. Trust me… as a guy who was a producer in a 3D animation studio… yes they can do it as well today.
Man… I still can’t believe you were trying to compare Casablanca to The Muppets.
Look, if The Muppets were a healthy franchise I never would have suggested the 3D animation thing. But the fact of the matter is they are NOT a healthy franchise. They aren’t even a shadow of their former popularity and media power. Nothing.
So yes, within the confines of an ongoing franchise property like The Muppets… I say give the 3D thing a try. They did it with 2D animation and had some good success with it. How come I don’t hear anyone talking about that???
But hey… if the rest of you Muppet fans are just content for the little guys to be nothing more than Credit Card and Pizza commercial gimmic jokes… then by all means… stay the course.
Good grief… comparing Casablanca to The Muppets. :P
Cheers!
~John
“So it’s fine for Yoda, but not good for the Muppets”
uh huh. and besides, does anyone in their right mind think that the Muppets could get a CGI treatment as well done as Gollum or Yoda? DEFINITELY not.
puppets will always be puppets and have a charm about them. the quality CGI that the Muppets would end up in would look dated and stupid within 5 years, if not right away.
‘characters are characters regardless of the medium’…. i cant stress this enough. okay then, by your logic… lets go make a CGI remake of Casablanca, after all, characters are characters regardless of medium. I dont see any Casablanca fan sites, where’s the Casablanca fanbase? they’re all dead, lets remake it in CGI and bring it to a new audience so it isnt forgotten…. don’t you see how ridiculous your reasoning is?
“Folks like me are endeared to the Muppets because of the characters… and if done right (and that’s a big if) characters transend Medium”
ever heard of the phrase ‘the medium is the message’? in the Muppets case it is entirely true. these characters are not just CHARACTERS, they get treated as ACTORS, as if they are living people, by being given billing in their movie posters instead of the actors’ names, doing interviews as their characters, etc. they are not the same as Jimmy Neutron or anyone else.
fan base, hello? hit DVDs? muppetcentral.com is one of the busiest fan sites on the entire Internet…
I’m Scottish (for those of you in the US that means I’m in Scotland which is north of England and part of Britain), and I can say quite categorically there is no muppet revival that we’ve seen.
No new show is being shown, no new products are being touted. In Britain I haven’t seen anything of them.
I’m a purist. Muppets = Puppets. If you want a bunch of CGI characters then call them Ciggits or something like that. Muppets are all about the Puppets, the acceptance by other established actors that these things are real and their interaction with them is about 90% of the enjoyment. You don’t get that feeling when some CGI creature is interacting with an actor.
The difference there is that the CGI scene is trying to fool you into believing it’s real, whereas the Puppets are obviously Puppets. Yoda was an attempt at creating a believable character, it worked well with a puppet but even better with CGI, because they were trying to fool you.
So it’s fine for Yoda, but not good for the Muppets.
I’m with you John. There’s been nothing in the UK about the Muppets, and the movies weren’t that huge after the first couple. It’s the TV show that was a huge hit here, and only the original.
Perhaps all these pro new-Muppet merchandising are catching US television and stores?
I think the only studio that this should be handed to is Pixar. They are the daddy when it comes to CG animation.
Very, very, very true…
And a marionette controlled by one or more puppeteers is called a puppet.
Not saying characters aren’t transferrable, whether I like it or not.. but a “puppet” in a cgi medium isn’t a puppet. Just like 2-D muppets weren’t puppets either. A cartoon reference to the original show yes, but not the show, or the concept, itself.
i disagree.
Characters are characters… regardless of the medium they’re portrayed in.
“One medium of puppets” is just like you said. A CGI medium of puppets aren’t puppets.
Muppets are puppets.
CGI Characters are CGI characters.
EDIT: – And as far as fan base goes, I revert to teh EXACT same scene with Disney’s 2-D issue. *IF* what someone percieves as a failing “medium”, is in fact doing so: How bout not making crap? Make something quality instead of turning the current garbage into 3-D garbage? People revert to 3-D as some kind of savior solution.
Hey Goon.
The difference is that people actually care about W&G these days. W&G works right now. Can’t say the same for “TV movie of the week” Muppets.
Cheers!
Nope… i totally disagree with you Wormwood. The discussion certainly does not “end there”
Character takes priority over medium. The muppets were not endeared to us based on the fact that they were puppets. If that was the case then 100’s of puppet shows would have been in production.
Folks like me are endeared to the Muppets because of the characters… and if done right (and that’s a big if) characters transend Medium. Trying a new medium to convey the characters (like they did with 2D animated versions of them for Saturday Mornings) is a logical thing to try and experiment with. Yes, it may very well flop… but they sure wouldn’t be doing any worse than they are now.
And as for this “fan base” you mention… where are they? A lot of good they’ve done the Muppets as they’ve sunk into pop-culture obscurity and become nothing more than a nostalgic gimic. Where is this “Fan Base” you speak of? :P
Basically, to say the Muppets are inherently confined to the one medium of puppets is (just in my opinion) a really limited view and undermines the value of the characters. Fozzie is Fozzie whether he’s 3D 2D Puppet or man-in suit.
The purist in me says that in a perfect world they just stay as they are… but that isn’t getting them anywhere. Why not TRY something new? You can always revert later. Just my two cents worth.
so John, are you going to follow up by pimping a Wallace and Gromit CGI movie tomorrow now? hehehehehe
Muppets – widely regarded as being the collecting of the words “Mouth Puppet” – in the name itself, clearly indicates that a CGI “Muppet”, in fact, isn’t. There the argument should end.
Forget muppets, puppeteering is an art form in and of itself.
2-D animation has made room on the table for 3-D animation – largely because 2-D animation is a widely familiar and widely accepted art form.
Puppeteering isn’t so much. *If* there’s more than one major puppeteering Company in wide function in cinema today, I’ve hardly heard of them.
In the same way people freak out over “endangered” animals being wiped out, there are very few puppeteering ventures out there.
Cgi Muppets is the lamest concept I heard for muppets. I haven’t even mentioned “fan-base” yet.
Because, may I remind John that he agreed with me here:
https://www.themovieblog.com/archives/2004/01/the_real_walt_disney_would_be_rolling_in_his_grave.html
early last year when Disney idiocally permanently “replaced” 2-D with 3-D. Puppeteering is an entirely different art form altogether – void of any hand/computer animation in the first place.
Yoda wasn’t a muppet. Neither was Jabba. I didn’t like the idea, but George Lucas is free to replace/change whatever he wants.
However, a “Muppet” is in fact, just that: a puppet. End of discussion.
Fucks NO!!!! I love puppeteer work and puppets, especially the work of Jim Henson. If it’s a Muppet movie about them as babies, I still wouldn’t want to see that crap, thats a slap in the face to Henson.
Okay wait, i’d give it a chance, I really would; but the feel and charm will be gone…..and thinking about it more and more, a new charm and feel might come out of a CG Muppet movie..theres hope. But still, damn……….
if “It’s time to try something new” John, then why not make new ‘Henson-esque’ characters and do THEM in CGI instead of pissing off the devoted fanbase thats keeping Muppets from being completely forgotten?
CGI of already established Muppet characters, AS A REPLACEMENT, is blasphemy. for some dumb commercial or even a kids show, not necessarily, i mean, Muppet Babies was animated.
but as a REPLACEMENT to the puppets, whether in a movie or on a new prime time show, is BLASPHEMY. the whole thing that made the Muppets famous in the first place is how they make a pile of felt and google eyes into believable, ‘living’ characters with emotions. Doing this is as stupid as redoing, say, “Harold and Maude” in CGI. theres absolutely no benefit in doing it. none whatsoever.
if a Muppet is in CGI, it is no longer a Muppet.
I’m a huge Muppets fan and have been passing on my love of them (and the Fraggles) to my daughter.
I personally adore the art puppetry and would be sad to see my Muppets made CG. I realize there is probably no way to get away from having some projects CG, but my hope is that they will continue to give us the muppets in the classic form we grew up with as kids.
Hey guys…
Seriously… I think you both made my point for me better than I did. Toy sales? “Made for TV” movies? DVDs? This is the Muppets Renaissance?
The Muppets were a media juggernaut with prime time, networked and highly rated TV shows. Major motion pictures. Top rated animated Saturday morning proerties…. and now they’re a made for tv movie (that people didn’t even know existed).
No one watches the new show (look at the ratings), and the sad sad realtiy is that the Muppets are well on their way (and an argument could be made that they’re there already) to becoming nothing more than a nostalgic gimmic. A novelty fit for nothing more than cheap Credit Card commercials.
Perhaps you’re both correct. Maybe the muppets will have some sort of resurgance to their former glory. I just highly doubt it. It’s time to try something new. At least that’s my opinion.
However, having said that… this is one of those situations where I will be more than pleased to be proved wrong.
Sorry to argue with you, but in the past Disney owned nothing. They were going to buy the Disney Company, but Jim’s death caused that to fall through. Henson then ended up selling the muppets to a third party company, and THAT is why we haven’t seen much muppet stuff until recently.
All Disney had before now was rights to use some of the characters in stuff like Muppetvision 3D, etc. With only rights and having to share $$$, they didn’t want to do as much with the characters (sound familiar Pixar?)
The Henson Company just recently bought back the Muppets from a German company where they wound up. They then sold Kermit & Company TO Disney. That’s where Kermit and “the muppets” currently are.
The Henson Company still exists outside of Disney – not a part of Disney, never was. They still own the Fraggles, Dark Crystal, Mirror Mask, etc.
Now, with Disney owning the Muppets, we are seeing more muppet stuff – the Wizard of Oz movie (which aired on ABC – Disney’s network), more merchandise, etc.
John,
you write about the Muppet purist and you have one working for you. I have applied for Jim Henson Interacative I think seven times by now, I have almost all of the works on DVD -minus the ones not yet released, and the TV specials-, my old radio disc jockey name was of one of the more colorful characters, and I do own the complete Palisade collection -regular toys, not mini’s and stuff-.
After the release of the Muppet Show season 1 on DVD, Fraggle Rock season 1, and the new made for TV movie “The Muppets Wizard of OZ”, the Muppets are being brought back in a big way.
To correct Rafe, Disney did own the Jim Henson Co. and they where the reason we did not see much of the lovable creatures for all those years. Now with both Son and Daughter helming the company, the Jim Henson Co. has purchased itself back from the evil Disney and has been working on brining the Muppets back to the way they where when Jim was alive.
In projects to come, there will with out a doubt be fully animated CGI characters, but; each and every original character will remain a puppet. This I guarantee; the Jim Henson Co. and Creature Shop has sunk to much money and R&D in sculpting, design and anamatronics to simply sell it all on eBay and start purchasing quad processors for rendering.
With the Jim Henson Co. being an independent company again, the vision of Jim Henson will maintain and grow but his personal creations shouldn’t be tampered with!
You’re on your own John.
I don’t believe you’re right either – the muppets are not dying a slow death. The recent Muppet Wizard of Oz came the closest to the flavor of The Muppet Movie out of everything that’s been done since Jim died. Besides, Disney just paid a hefty price for the Muppets. They certainly aren’t going to let their investment disappear.
Muppets just got a set of stamps in the US. Palisades Toys sold like hotcakes. Muppet DVD sales are doing well, both for Kermit & co. and the fraggles, introducing a new generation to the Muppets. My two year old niece especially loves to see “wocka wocka wocka”.
Our biggest online competitor as movie critics are not Ebert & Roeper, but Statler & Waldorf, who are using the internet as an opportunity to express their opinions on movies.
ABC has a parody-reality tv show they are looking into that would star the muppets and, if rumors are to believed, would lead into another Muppet Show style program. Lots of people watched Muppets Tonight (that’s the name of “the new show” BTW).
On top of that,I recently met an official Henson source who mentioned several things they’ve got planned for the near-future at Henson Company, so even that side, without Kermit, is continuing on.
Muppets are not going gently into that good night. If anything they are kicking, screaming, and making sure everyone knows they are alive.