Jay sent me this character board for Bumblebee. I really do like the concept that the new Transformers don’t have guns… but rather that various parts of them turn into guns when they need them. Makes a lot more sense. I dig the shoulder mounted rockets too.
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Nevermind about my previous comment. I’ve returned to my usual excitement about the film, esp. since I am now no longer wasting so much time and energy worrying about it, which is probably one of the best ways to go. But I would like to make a few comments before I sign off.
First, to all complainers and zealots; Get.Over.It. Be thankful you’re getting a film in the first place. And If I may use a little logic; G1 was made in the eighties, and last time I checked it’s still 2007. Times change, and technology changes along with it. Even the transformers have changed along with it, wih CYBERTRON being the latest in the line. And I also seem to remeber people makinga big stink about “Beast wars” since it deviated from the “tradtional” (and therefore “correct”) vehicles and mechanical devices. But Beast wars turned out to be a certifiable hit. Oh and to you G1 zealots out there; If all the transformers turned into were earth based machines, then what were the Dinobots? How about the original predacons? And speaking of new shows, look at all the desins that have come out since G1. Notice how the toys from the Cybertron line are more complex than the orignial G1, in not only there designs but size and level of transformation difficulty? The point I’m trying to make here is that change will always be part of the transformers for good (g1, Beast wars) or bad (Beast machines through Cybertron) Heck it’s their friggin name for crying out loud! In fact, to want everything to not change isn’t just unfeasible, it’s selfish. Yeah, you zealots out there want the transformers you know and love, but what about the kids who didn’t grow up with G1? Where do they fit in your worldview? After all, don’t they also play with transformers? Is the current show NOT aimed for them? This movie isn’t just being made soley for people who grew up entirely on G1, it’s being made for trans fans of all ages who grew and grow up on the other stuff since the original that has come out.
In conclusion, I will end this with my answer to all the naysayers; Grow up. This film is being made for everyone, today’s kids DEFINITELY given. So stop being so selfish and give the film a chance.
Sorry If I suddenly seem hypocritical, but my “spider sense is tingling, and it’s not stopping. As much as I understand the reasons they changed the transformers, I can’t help but feel like this is going to be the biggest let down since king kong. It’s probably due to the fact that Micheal Bay is directing it, and I see his work as crap. And some of the fans aren’t helping my condition. Please help me clear this up.
On another note, I have indeed learned that there are quite a number of people who didn’t grow with the Transformers, or they did but no longer care. I suppose this has some merit, right?
Maximus Prime, did you even take the time to actually read some of their disscussions? If so, you can plainly read that there ARE point- counterpoint discussions being made, and they are also expressing their opinions in a decent, civilized, and thouroghly adult manner. However, I suppose you’re more used to the “discussions” held on AICN forums, which I HAVE read, and to which I can sum up in three, simple words; Childish, Immature, juvinile. Much like your ” no breast-feeding” remark.
Where’s the civil discussion? All I see is passive-aggressive snide comments on part of Jay, not to mention ignoring the arguments of the other side. That’s what’s called a “veil of civility” ;)
What with the “chucky-boy” comments, you were barely short of “too bad you are full of hate, your mom probably didn’t breast-feed you”.
A musical about the witches from The Wizard of Oz breaks West End box office records, its producers say…
Sorry about the wierd comment, but someone just posted on here a little earlier that the guy who did the voice in the schwepps commercials has died at 81.
Yes, well, I’m sorry to hear that, and my sympathies go out to his family, but what does this have to do with transformers?
First off, I would like to say; finally, an online discussion where people behave like grown-ups and not overgrown prepubescents! Second, in relation to the movie designs; I like them. I can not only see the robot but what they will transform into as well. Granted, I have a bigger imagination than most people, but if you use just a semalcrum of logic, you can easily see the vehicle in the robot and vice versa. Also, on another note, I grew up with G1, G2, Beast Wars, Beast Machines, RID, Armada, and Cybertron, so I just consider this to be another incarnation of the transformers universe. And lets face it people, They wouldn’t be transformers if the didn’t TRANSFORM. I may not like the idea of Bay directing the film, but I will withhold my official opinion until after I see the film. I also agree with Jay that they are staying true to the history and idea of the transformers, which is indeed more important.
Sorry…
Meant to say counter-point, not “coumter-point”.
Stupid fingers.
Seeing Megatron step on Tyrese would be worth the price of admission by itself. Sadly, I don’t see that happening. Oh well.
Yes, I too despise the AICN talkbacks. All they wanna do over there is insult each other and have there childish little flame wars. No discussion. No trading point for coumter-point. Just insults.
It’s like if you don’t see it their way, you’re an a–hole, and an idiot, and a F-g, and all that other nonsense that goes on over there.
My advice…
Don’t worry about it because it will never change, and just don’t post over there anymore
true…off topic: does anyone else hate the talkback at aintitcool.com i mean damn, these people got problems. you cant say anything without some dumbass spitting curse words with CAPS. fuckin losers….also tyrese wont ruin it as long as megatron steps on him, or blows up his tank.
peace
I dont think anyone is happy about Tyrese, But there is no way in hell I’m gonna let him ruin the movie for me.
thanks man, its cool that people can discuss things they like without somebody being an asshole and getting angry (i fuckin hate the gamefaqs forums). but we all can agree that having the classic prime voice kicks ass. and most of us will be seeing the movie regardless of what we thing of the designs…but tyrese…not too happy about that one lol
peace
Toni,
Yes, but in the Alternators toyline he appears to be a Ford Mustang.
Chris,
I know the helmet description was a little out there, so i must admit I was just trying to egg Chucky-boy on a little. I agree it was in reality a fairly standard helmet. And dont worry, I know when people are just kiddin’ around. I just wish more people on the internet knew how to take a joke.
Otherwise, you made some very good points brother.
I like that everyone here can have a cool, mature discussion with different opinions :)
Now, my question is- Jay, you mentioned that you saw Grimlock as a mustang? Er, wasn’t he supposed to be a T-rex on account of him being a Dinobot? Or am I forgetting something in my Transformers history?
great discussion fellas, by the way whos buying the 20th anniversary transformers the movie dvd? i dont have it yet but i want it…anyway im only disappointed to the fact that when i heard transformers the movie was going to be live-action, i didn’t expect to see classic G1 optimus jump up and turn into a 18 wheeler in cgi…but i did expect to be watching the movie and know its transformers by more than the name. i want to feel like im watching a modern tellin of a classic story, with characters intact
in my humble opinion the only thing that makes this flick transformer is that robots turn into cars and back. i know what youre thinkin isn’t that what tf basically is? i have to say no. half of the reason i liked the show was the recognizable and unique characters. and lookin at the bumblebee design im sadened because it looks like a completly different character. bumblebee was the young, inexperienced, likable kid with heart character and this thing looks like a anime war machine with rocket launchers coming from his thighs. really wtf. oh and the face, to those who say “thats what i expected bumblebee to look like, hes a bumblebee”…nice try but no
i dont even want to get on megatron, but jay “penis tip helmet”…kinda creepy, lol. it looked like a regular old helmet to me, but maybe i wasn’t thinkin about penis (lol jus fuckin wit you). megatron looks like an alien bug cyborg, not a robot. these are ROBOTS.
these designs seem to want to distance themselves as much as possibe from the original designs and i think thats the problem. a medium could have been found to update the characters and have them still BE the character.
peace
Obviously since our entire discussion has been based around the design of the robots, I assumed you would realize that I was talking about the design of the Beast Wars cartoon robots. Maybe I assume too much.
What i got from your beast wars comment was that its OK if Optimus Prime was a gorilla, but the fact that he’s still a truck but looks overly complicated in robot mode is unforgivable. He can be an animal and I can look past it, they can all be animals and I can look past it and see the good, but Bay’s got hell to pay if he makes them look too different from the G1 standard. That’s a strange view to have but I guess you are entitled to it. I really just cant fathom how you can refer to making them animals as rounding edges, but what Bay has done is horrible. But hey, to each their own. I know your “friend” made the rounding edges comment, but obviously you believe it too.
You did give more reasons why you have the feeling that you do. And I applaude you for it. Good job.
You FEEL that was my implication regarding Bay’s way. You can assume what I think and mean all you want but it doesnt make it fact. I have never said that Bay’s way was the ONLY way. I only said it made it seem more believeable and realistic in my opinion. Also, I never said this was the ONLY way to make it believeable. Another one of your assumptions. In fact, I stated that they COULD have stuck closer to the G1 standard and still be realistic. But maybe you just didnt read all of my post.
Regardless, I still like the design and will most likely enjoy the movie, so have fun with your hate. I like my disposition much better.
Jay,
Departing post…
To be honest I thought A) you were speaking of the new Classics Prime toy, B) don’t see why there couldn’t be a redesign where a wall separates cab seating from robot head, but mostly C) Masterpiece Prime should be the example to be considered, much like MP Starscream. In fact, for every point on the 80’s toy you make, I’d offer MP Prime as they’re all answered. That’s an example of a real working model from which computer graphics could easily create from.
No, I’m not the guy at the computer creating computer graphics from designs dismissive of the design standard. Are you? Implying I’m somehow ignorant of the situation simply because I’m not sitting at the computer in the design studio working off of Bay’s impossible & non-realistic preferences is a BIT much.
Whatever “one I’d go with”, I’d be more inclined to point out “whatever it is, it’s not a Bayformer I’d give a thumbs up to”.
“You hate the design.” Loathe in some cases, dislike in others, feel just shy of hitting the mark on at least one (the Incinerator/Blackout” coptercon that – while it still functions on the bitforming bs – runs closer to the solid standard). “So in effect you dont see the the plausibilty in any argument defending the design.” I think I just showed otherwise. If it were merely a matter of me not liking it I wouldn’t get past the phrase “It’s ugly”. I provide quite a bit more than that, thanks.
YOU may have not seen someone say Bay’s way is the only way the Transformers could be made real, but elsewhere it’s implied or flat out stated quite often. By ignoring entirely plausible other fashions in which to create realistic robot modes from accurate vehicles, saying these impossibilities of Bayformers are indeed realistic, then using strictly the oldest of artistic license to debunk the thought that you CAN do it realistically and in true respectful homage DOES imply you feel Bay’s way is the way. By dismissing the actual look later in your posting by saying “in what way other” you cancel out the design standard entirely, negating the question of design and replacing it with a route of story. That’s not what’s being covered. Direct the debate out of the subject matter all you like, it doesn’t change the subject matter.
And what of your examples? Noting they’ve abandoned the aesthetic the franchise has lived on; The time they’ve been on Earth has changed. The manner, era, and meaning of arrival. Prime is marked with a rediculous paintjob contrary to the seriousness of his character. You try and note he’s in charge of the Autobots Ironhide, Bumblebee and Jazz (forgetting Ratchet) yet given the dismissal of iconic image, that’s questionable. Optimus (in this movie) is not actually a truck that transforms into a robot, simply put, but in truth a comet with nanotastic “skin” that reformats in less than a second and bit-tizes into an impossibly “complex” Jy-ent fuggin row-bawt who’s structuring doesn’t seem reasonable for a war spanning the ages. There’s not Energon Cubes, there’s the Energon Cube, singular, since they’re not going to call it The Matrix, like in the canon. The list goes on. Pointless changes in story from the Rogers script, which was horrible, even in the February version already revamped by Bay’s brought-writers. My complaints go far beyond mere looks, but since this is a visual movie and THE FIRST LIVE ACTION/CGI FILM DEBUT (a milestone for the franchise) image IS important. For any number of other issues, I’d recommend a visit to my site.
As for Beast Wars, BW was one of those “edges rounded” pieces in designs mentioned prior, and it truly hit it’s mark by respecting G1. Since you don’t designate what it is about the BW tales you don’t dig (since it could be the story that’s hated, but you’re not mentioning that as that wouldn’t have an issue on the designs….even though it wouldn’t have much impact on discussion of the movie otherwise as well….oopsage there I’d say). Can’t provide analysis for the vaguest of comments, and I think it could be intentional. Plus, as an online friend has said elsewhere, “Beast Wars showed us that radical and scary seeming wholesale changes to a franchise can be softened with good writing & characterisation, but Beasties had the luxury of 40+ episodes to bed in the characters/differences to aesthetic and story, wheras this film will only have around 90 minutes to sell us on this vastly different new take, and the majority, by far, of that focuses on a bunch of humans.”
Bye.
No need to worry.
I think if anyone needs to curtail his responses, it’s me, but… what’re ya gonna do. I’m passionate about this movie.
As for the Alternators –
I like Dead End, as I have always had a soft spot for Vipers.
And Mirage, as the Ford GT is wicked.
WheelJack is cool too. I love the color coded interior. Very sharp, indeed.
Wait a second, I just noticed that the silver mustang is Grimlock.
I gotta say… I like the choice.
To be honest, I think that if they made Prime turn into a Geo Tracker he would still sell the most. Strange but true :)
Re: Dodge-imus Prime. Har har. ;)
Actually, no — he doesn’t. He was supposed to be Ironhide, but they changed him to Prime so he’d sell better in Japan. Not a good example, but he made the front page. Even a subpar Prime sells better than the posse, eh? ;)
Personally, I dig Tracks and Wheeljack the most.
…
…..
… I said that I’d shut up, didn’t I? D’oh…
All in good fun, fellas
I cant help but notice that Optimus is a Dodge Ram and in no way resembles his classic self.
I’m just sayin’…
And I see you appreciated the “trigger-dick” comment.
You are definitly cool, brother:p
To be honest with you Kneon,
No I had never seen those designs before and I do like them very much. Thank you for pointing them out to me. They are wicked, no doubt. And if I had seen them first, it may have made me think differently about the new designs, but I doubt it. I simply like the look of the robots, and welcome the changes.
I never said it was the ONLY way to go (as chuck seems to think) nor do I feel that the designers and producers and director feel that this was the ONLY way to go. Like you said, It’s simply the design they chose and all involved were happy with it. End of story. No lies. No misinformation. Just cold simple facts. This is the design the liked. The design they felt was realistic and believeable. The design they went with.
Do I think that they could have looked more like the classic robots and still be believeable? Of course I do. Any number of things could have been different. But my point is and always will be that change was neccesary and I like the direction they took.
Thank you for the terrific conversation, Kneon
By the way, Having a big robot on my desk would in no way affect me negatively. I’m a bit of a geek. I think perhaps we all are to spend this much time and put this much thought into a Transformers movie.
Love the discussion and absolutely no hard feelings.
Disagreements create conversation.
Respect to all parties involved in this talk.
Well chuck,
Where to start…?
The Prime toy…
Where’s the drivetrain? Where would that be represented in the toy?
Are we to believe that he could blend into earth with a giant robot head in the passenger compartment?
What about his fists? Could they really fit into the area provided by his forearms?
How about the engine. Since his hip socket area actually takes up the space in the engine bay, where do you suggest we put that?
My response was a generalization. I read every word you typed.
But my question to you is, are you the guy at a computer trying to make every single part of a real truck transform into a robot?
Are you the guy with that responsibility, or are you a guy at his personal computer pissed off at the design that has been adopted?
If you are the latter, then I think we can assume that you dont fully know what went into the design process or what is neccessary to make that happen. If all of this applies then we must therefore conclude that you cant judge what has been a lie and what hasnt.
There is a lot more to a real truck than there is to a toy truck that was designed from the start to turn into a robot so that particular argument really doesnt hold water. Also, the toy has very little resemblance to the cartoon version of the robot in my opinion.
So which one would you rather go with?
You hate the design. So in effect you dont see the the plausibilty in any argument defending the design. Just because you dont like the look doesnt mean that the ideas presented defending the neccesity of said changes were lies. I understand also that you are simply reffering to the final design and the reasons given for the final design, but I havent seen or read anyone say this is the only way these robots could look, just that this is the way they look and these are our reasons for it. So any argument made stating that the implication was made that this is the ONLY way it would look realistic or believeable is something that you are inferring. Ergo, or no ergo, it is simply something that you have decided to get out of what was said based on how you feel about the design and your opinion of the level of need for said changes.
I see that you dont expect an exact literal copy of the cartoon and for that I am glad, but when I look at the robots I see enough of what I need to see to make them “Transformers” to me. The idea of the Transformers is still intact.
You say the designs indicate that the movie is not staying true to the fiction they are adapting from, but I say in what way other than the boxy look from the cartoon. He’s still blue and red. He’s still an 18 wheeler. He’s still the leader of the autobots. He’s gonna have the same voice. He’s still gonna beat the crap out of Megatron. He’s still gonna have Ironhide, Bumblebee and Jazz backing him up. he’s still from Cybertron. He’s still looking for those damned Energon Cubes.
So how, other than the look, are they straying from the fiction they are adapting from. How can you say they are not remaining true to it “at all”, when your only complaint has been the look. You say “the designs indicate that the latter (ie: remain true to the fiction you’re adapting from) is not being done at all”. How? When all those other points are remaining true to the fiction at hand. For someone who claims not to be glued to the look of the cartoon, you sure do place a lot of importance on it.
Dude,
You dont like the look. That’s fine.
Dont call people liars for the reasons they gave for the changes.
Again, no one ever said this is the ONLY POSSIBLE way to go. That’s something that you are inferring not something that was said or even implied. What was said was that this was the approach that they took to make it more realistic and these are the reasons for it. All true statements.
P.S. – Dont take this stuff so seriously, man.
It’s just a movie based on an 80’s cartoon.
P.S.S. – Was the Beast Wars cartoon and toyline keeping the standard in effect? Just a question.
Hey Jay –
Parting thought — honest! :)
Just curious if you’ve ever seen Hasbro’s Alternators toyline? Real world, new model licensed vehicles that transform into highly articulated robots that still are recognizable as their 80’s counterparts.
http://www.hasbro.com/transformers/default.cfm?page=Alternators
Then hit “view products” to get the full effect. All 100% accurate 1:24 scale cars, most very accurate homages to their 80’s counterparts in robot mode as well.
No fudging. No mass shifting. No weirdly hidden heads — everything is hidden and even the interiors are real-world accurate. Steering wheels turn and all. Pop the hood — there’s the engine — no robot parts showing. None. In fact, the engines often turn into the weapons or they are hidden elsewhere. Oh, and no trigger crotches, either. ;)
Point is — yes, a balance *could* probably have been struck between old and new. More than likely, it boiled down to personal choice of the people involved in the movie — which is fine. It’s their money, after all.
I think much of fandom’s disappointment can be traced to the Alternators toys, honestly. They came out about the same time as the live-action movie was announced and the assumption was that they were sort of a “trial run” to see if Transformers were do-able in the real world. Yes, they were — but they didn’t go the Alternators route.
Even if it doesn’t sway you (and it probably won’t) they’re awesome, awesome toys and I’d encourage you to pick one up if you can. They’re great for the office — and can be converted to a model car if you somehow feel weird about having toy robots lying around. ;)
Good discussion. Thank you!
Jay,
I do understand what you posted prior is your opinion, and merely posted to respond to some misconceptions, like I do. I’m not trying to change anyone’s mind, that’s never been why I post online in regards to Transformers. But folks out there who don’t keep up as attentively at times take what fellow online fans tell them at face value. Again…just trying to clear up misconceptions. It’s never been about sway, but about truth, and in this case the lack thereof behind a lot of items related to this upcoming film.
I never said this would be the cartoon, kindly point out where I did. I never said this would be better if done just like the cartoon, or the comic for that matter, kindly show me where I claimed otherwise. What I said was “you’re riding on the notion an exact cartoon design is being desired. Such is not the case for most folks as it’s understood the actual design needs work to be made real (Think; Computer generated Masterpiece Prime or Starscream, to get the idea)”. And note it’s not even verbatim those toys wanted, but more presented to show an entirely accurate alternative mode, a physical structure entirely workable in real life, and robot modes more akin to not only prior counterparts but the design standards of the franchise for the past twenty years in one way or the next ARE possible, ERGO claiming Bay’s attempt here is “more realistic” (implying otherwise of all else) and thus “the only possible way to go” is wrong and then some. You simply did not read what was typed given the response provided. Again, when creating a film based on a preexisting media, the goal is to both make a film all can enjoy AND remain true to the fiction you’re adapting from. The designs indicate the latter is not being done at all.
While I didn’t mention Classic Prime, let’s take that example. Not for movie standard realism, but more to show you something. When holding that toy in your hand you have a small representation of the actual vehicle. You transform this toy and you have a robot. You have a fully functioning representation of a real vehicle being reconfigured in real life into a robot. Think about that.
I did not say wheels can disappear into thin air, further showing my reply wasn’t fully read or considered. But on the flip side, care to tell me where the mass of that gun arm of “Mutebee” on the concept art goes? Compare to the actual arm for reference.
I’m actually more in love with the story of Transformers, down to every last quirky character. But that’s because until now the standard’s been in effect.
My OPINION is that the designs are ugly, the FACT is the reasoning behind them is a lie.
Regards.
On a completely unreleted topic…
Isnt it great that we have jobs where we can spend this much time on the internet discussing movies.
Heh. It’s OK. Stoopid interweb.
I’m hoping they nail the personalities, anyway. And… even if I personally don’t view it as a great Transformers movie, maybe I’ll still dig it as a decent “Giant F*cking Robots” flick. ;)
Kneon,
I completely agree.
And I was writing that last paragragh while you were posting your response. It was meant to go right after my other post.
Just trying to let you know I wasnt trying to be aggravating or argumentative.
Anyway…
Great discussion all around.
Do they stray “too much”?
Not to me they dont.
To me, Beast wars was straying “too much”.
Where’s the hate for that ridiculous piece of garbage. (editor’s note: my opinion)
But I digress…
Optimus is a truck that transforms into a robot. I see Prime in that robot so I’m not disappointed. I appreciate the fact that Bay went with a bigger truck to make Prime bigger in robot mode.
Bumblebee is car that transforms into a robot. I see Bumblebee in that robots face so I’m not disappointed. Bumblebee is not a VW Bug because of Volkwagen not because of Bay. So you cant blame him for that.
I understand that Megatron never takes on a human vehicle form so therefore I understand why he looks the way he does in robot form. As a bonus, not only do I understand Megatron’s look, I absolutely love it.
Does it look like the cartoon version?
No! Not in any way whatsoever.
Does that one fact affect my love of the new design?
No! Not in any way whatsoever.
Because I know that the character of Megatron will be there.
The fact that he despises Prime and the other Autobots.
His opinion that humans and basically any other life-form are beneath him.
His confrontations with Starscream.
The fact that he is a complete badass and will try to destoy whoever disagrees with him.
That’s what makes him Megatron.
Not his trigger dick or penis tip helmet.
Appreciate the sentiment, Jay. I don’t think anyone here is asking you to hate on the designs, just explaining why we (for whatever reason) may not be too fond of them ourselves, as you explained why you *do* like them.
Admittedly, many of the ‘haters’ are hardcore Transformers fans/toy collectors and have a stronger attachment to the original designs than casual fans do, and there were a lot of preconceived notions in fandom as to how the designs should be/would be handled for this flick. When they didn’t meet the expectations of some… well… there was weeping and gnashing of teeth.
(Honestly, the hardcore Transformers fans are split over the movie like I’ve never seen them split before. ‘Tis sad.)
Free country, and both opinions should be allowed to be expressed freely. And ultimately, the real test will be the final film. I’m still hoping to like it despite the designs, and maybe it’ll win a few other ‘haters’ over as well… ?
(…or it could have the totally opposite effect… but let’s not drag this thread down any more! ha ha )
In the end, Chuck, Chris and Kneon,
I see what you guys are saying and to a point I can sympathize but I just dont dislike the design. I see what they were trying to do and I appreciate where they went. You are entitled to think otherwise. You are entilted to see flaws where I dont. You are entitled to voice hate and aggravation where I spew praise and love.
Neither one of us is “right” or “wrong”.
We just say what we think and voice our opinions.
and thanks, Chris
Peace to you too.
Like I said, I love discussing these things.
Well Chuck I gotta say I do appreciate you well thought out answer, but please understand that everything I wrote earlier was simply my opinion. I welcome disagreements, but understand this one simple fact… you will never change my mind. I will never see these designs as “overly complicated” or “overly assembled” as you put it. So no matter how logical your argument is (and I see the logic in your argument) I still feel that the points I brought up are valid. I am not a slave to the idea that the look has to be an absolute reproduction of the cartoon because I realize thats all it was. This is not the cartoon. This is an adaptation of that cartoon for movie audiences who dont have the same notions and desires as 10 year old kids watching TV on saturday morning. Whether you believe it or not, the majority of people that go to see this movie will not be lifelong Transformers fans, so the idea that the “look” has to be exactly like the cartoon only applies to a few hardcore fans. And please dont bring up how much the people on the internet dislike the design. That was really only about Megatron as most seem to like the Prime and Bumblebee design. On a side note about internet likes and dislikes, I think we all saw how much “power” internet likes and dislikes have after the S.o.a.P. fiasco, so I think we all need to sit back and realize that the internet fan base is not as big or hold as much sway as maybe some of us believe.
You dont feel it’s a logical adaptation to make it more acceptable in the real world, but I do. You dont like the designs so you bring up points to argue your point of view. I like the designs so I bring up ideas that support mine.
As far as my “mistaken viewpoint to spout” goes, well… lets just say I’m not going to belittle your arguments like that and I’ll just say that you think they’re “mistaken” simply because you dont agree. That in and of itself doesnt make them mistaken, it means we have different ways of looking at things. I feel that the design makes them more believeable because I never believed the way they transformed in the cartoon. I always thought “man, that’s cheesy” and “the friggin’ metal is all bendy, that isnt the way it would react”.
Let me clear one thing up.
I love the way the classic Prime looks. Absolutely LOVE it. If there was a way that I could see that robot photorealistically transform into a real 18 wheeler then I would be on your side of the tracks, but I cant. I simply cant envision it without it looking fake, cartoonish and silly. Look at the two transformations of prime in the cartoon movie. Even in the movie they couldnt show the legs transform from truck to robot or from robot to truck because even the animators knew what had to happen was impossible to animate. Then look at his midsection and tell me how that would happen in a realistic CGI manner. It would be ridiculous in my opinion.
To me, this basic argument can be caompared to the Batman of the comics and the Batman of the movies.
In my humble opinion, Batman in the movies would look absolutely laughable running around in blue and light grey spandex trying to scare criminals. Completely unbelieveable that this look would scare anyone, let alone hardened criminals. I know you’re going to say that the Batman of the movies is not as drastic a departure from the comics as these robots are from the cartoon, but my point remains. It works in the comics but would look silly on screen. The real world doesnt react the way most comics and cartoons do. Giant transforming robots have to abide by certain rules. Wheels cant disappear into thin air, ya know. The body of the car cant simply abide by the bendy metal rules of the cartoon when in robot mode.
Just as much as you cant see why I like and understand the new designs of the robots, I cant see how you think the cartoon cheats and transformations wouldnt look ludacrious in a realistic CGI world.
I see where you’re coming from, I just dont agree with you.
The script Bay is shooting from…
The script that we have all read is an early draft.
Will the final product have most of the major beats there? Probably so.
Will it be exactly like the script we read? Probably not.
Bottom line, I dont dislike the script or any liberties Bay has taken with the robots.
Like I said earlier…
You are in love with the look of the Transformers.
I am in love with the idea of the Transformers. It frees me to be more open to design changes.
And let me be geeky here for a minute…
How would a human know what makes practical sense for an “alien war machine”? Are you basing it simply on how we practice and execute war? Are you basing it on how we design our war machines?
Maybe their entire body is composed of the same hard, resilient metals. Maybe in their centuries or warfare they came upon the notion that they should make thier “insides” as hard as their “outsides”. To me, that seems like a logical progression.
But what do I know.
Either way, dude.
Love where you went with your argument, I just dont see it that way.
By the way, what seems logical to an individual has a funny way of bending to meet the tastes of that individual. Think about it.
And here’s what was missing in that first set of “()”; http://www.transformersfanfic.com/index.php?view=PublicSubmission%2FBody&categoryType=1&publicsubmission_id=4320
Apologies, I was on a roll I guess.
Regards..
Jay,
Using the likes of mass-shifting () and 80’s cartoon artist license to fully justify Bay’s designs (note I said the designs, not a preference one such as yourself may have for them) is illfounded I’m afraid. As detailed as you’ve made your examples, you’re riding on the notion an exact cartoon design is being desired. Such is not the case for most folks as it’s understood the actual design needs work to be made real (Think; Computer generated Masterpiece Prime or Starscream, to get the idea). That wasn’t done here, the designs were abandoned, and only fleeting attempts to touch on what the characters once were are being flung in to be proclaimed likeness, like the helmet design on Prime. You mentioned that you believe these robots could transform, yet when you just view the robot mode, what do you think it transforms into?
Further to the notion of “will make them more believeable in the real world” is the mistaken viewpoint to spout. It’s not important to the production team iconic designs/forms that gave Transformers that solid look are being done away with, it’s laughably dismissive that ugly amalgamations of anime & scifi medias that can’t be set into a realistic context regarding their reformatting capabilities (which are one of the more magical aspects of Transformers I’ve seen recently) & bendy metal costumes/non-costumes, and it’s worth lying to hundreds/thousands of people over & over again with a claim that “these were the only/more realistic way to go” in regards to movie designs that ignore reality when convenient (where have I heard that before?), movie designs that make no sense for living sentient war machines, movie designs that are impossibly complex schemes comprised of bits. The unsaid implication here is that continued notion (on the downlow, but there) that Bay’s way was the only way to do it. That’s wrong.
I don’t find Bay’s designs overly realistic, mere overly assembled perhaps. These are robots at civil war for longer than life on Earth having the whole land living thing down. These are the best robotic forms they could come up with as a cybernetic species? Barely solid? Pile of metal? Bit & pieces that achingly look like they’re meant to be blown to bits & pieces? Doesn’t seem that practical at all. Certainly not realistic for sentient war machines. They can take on alternative modes like Bush takes on countries, but Camaro Mutebee can’t so much as get his voicebox fixed up?
Which brings in the morphtastic mode altering. So things like mass-shifting & such are unrealistic and therefore not welcome as they are unbelievable for movie audiences. These “Transformers” first come as Comet Entry Pods. They then morph entirely from Comets to Earth alt modes. Some, if info on the script is accurate, in less than a second meaning they can change alt modes on the fly. With all these morpharific conversions, why physically reconfigure at all? Why have an alt mode specifically? Why not just morph into whatever? Seriously. Bay’s bitformers are hardly some crowning achievement of realism. What with reformat in a flash changes, bendy metals, and the fact these ugly, ugly robot forms don’t seem very smart for a cybernetic species long at civil war as they’re made to be blown to bits, on onward to plenty of other mentions, “realism” isn’t something to be attributed. S’no excuse for the departure from Transformer iconic imagery present throughout the franchise (which coincidentally is not “too cartoony” as it’s present in all TF media – Spider-Man’s costume has remained the same {other than obvious variants that are worth mentioning are contained in media still retaining the original costume} throughout comics, cartoons, toys and movies…not “too cartoony” there as merely there being a cartoon with it included doesn’t “cartoony” make). It’s as though, no it’s that they’ve taken thoughts on items in Transformers to keep them out of the new film using terms like “unbelievable” and “unrealistic” along the way, then when it came to their stuff, shrugged once, said “whatever” and went the way of seemingly integrated bendy metal costumes that can be morphed along with the robot’s actual form like it’s nothing.
By arguing otherwise the notion that this movie design standard of impossibly complex (in most cases) design complete with bendy metal (in at least some cases) that can entirely reformat in less than a second was the only way for it to be done is being pushed as truth, which is inaccurate (and that’s the nice word I chose to describe it).
It still remains that throughout all the series the designs were nicely solid no matter the styling in that they transformed as all TFs have prior, sectionized solidly with recognition of the alt mode evident in the solid & well covered robot mode. More “blocky with rounded edges” in some cases, but still proving true to the franchise standard. Until now that is, what with the movie.
And given departures left & right, to assume the story that you find endearing of the Transformers will remain for the most part untouched could, note I say COULD, be mistaken as well…
I really wish the ever constant notion that people who say “I dislike like that design” in all its shapes & possible forms are some grouping desiring nothing but a cg version of the cartoon verbatim would just stop already. If the designs for Bay’s movie are dug, or some line of thinking has been established in a person’s mind who digs said designs, fine, but it should be presented like that rather than the polar opposite of claiming wrongly what “the other side of preferences” says.
The line of speaking behind the huge departure has been that making the Transformers for the film look more like their prior incarnations is either, “we wanted to do something never seen before”, “going more ‘blocky’ would be too cartoony”, “we tried the older designs but they didn’t work”, “these new designs are more realistic”, etc. Yet it’s flawed. If they used a cartoon, it would look like a cartoon. If they used cg, it would look like cg. And if they used a guy in a cardboard box suit, it would look like a guy in a cardboard box suit. I entirely doubt they so much as bothered with more “blocky” or in truth “Transformery” designs. Transformers, namely G1-esque, have managed to retain that classic look even in update. When creating a film based on a preexisting media, the goal is to both make a film all can enjoy (because let’s face it, a cult classic takes balls no one fuck related to this movie, Hasbro included, has) AND remain true to the fiction you’re adapting from. The designs indicate the latter is not being done at all. This movie’s attempt is further off the mark than the aim of Chaney’s quail hunting rifle. When someone either associated with the film or a fan who likes it and feels the need to speak to me to justify to themselves this departure attempts to explain that these designs are unlike anything we’ve seen before (though in truth they’re like EVERYTHING we’ve seen before outside of Transformers) and that making the Cybertronians look more like the standard is impossible (attempting to negate the fact you can combine old with new like in Alternators or more accurately the Masterpieces which can be digitally created thus giving an entirely real & able form & function true to the franchise and recognizable to the brand) I’m left sitting there in the room/thread with the notion a bull just passed through to empty his bowels.
Now, more specific to the design concept here; If “Mutebee” here is, before, an older camaro, then later the new model, is there some form of mass-shifting going on here? The robot design appears same in both circumstances despite one vehicular mode being an old boat, the other the more stylish & slightly compacted slice of sports car. Yet there doesn’t seem to be difference between size or configuration (and given the “complexity” of these bots that seems like it should matter, right?) from one to the other….? Really, I’m asking..
As well I don’t quite understand the logic here. On the changing arm cannon thing mind you. To me it would seem that if you’re so pushing for Autobots to have been brought into this by the warring Decepticons, shouldn’t the Autobot, or I should say, wouldn’t the Autobots be better characterized with the addition of hand held weapons? Does that make sense? Prime has one. Then again Prime has five fingers and a justification of his flame paintjob to create a “rib look” in robot mode. Odd the reasoning behind most doesn’t apply to others when convenient I’d say.
But back to “Mutebee”. Per Orci, “[Bumblebee is] still an autobot, same color scheme, most interactive with Sam, underdog characterization, doors which look like wings in bot mode make him look like his namesake.” Still an Autobot? Still? Same color scheme? Fantastic! Strikes back to some’s claim that Bumble Bee was little more than “the yellow one”. *Sigh* “Doors which look like wings in bot mode make him look like his namesake.” Not that I truly mind them….but here’s a thought; If they’re so concerned with making Bumblebee more like his namesake, there’s better ways to go about it than altering the “makes sense” (read “no sense”) design alterable in post production and I’m guessing they had to cheat to alter the form/function just to get the wings there. For one, they could make it look more like BUMBLEBEE.
And I have to agree with Chris. Despite the claims of many pro-movie design folks, most “anti-movie” fans aren’t asking for a straight-up adaptation of the G1 designs… they just want to be able to *recognize* the characters. There’s a difference between updating a character out of necessity (Spider-Man and X-Men being good examples) and completely starting from scratch on the designs, which is how many Transformers fans feel about how these designs have been approached. The baby and the bathwater and all that.
Do we all want “boxy bots?” Not necessarily. But I’d be happy with a Starscream or Megatron I could at least *recognize* as those characters and I cannot say that I do based on what’s been leaked.
I don’t think fandom is as polarized as its being made out to be, either. It’s almost as if you take issue with the inability to recognize well-known characters that you are criticizing *all* of the thought that went into these designs. (Too much like politics — very few are extreme left or right, most fall somewhere in-between and to varying degrees.)
I personally don’t want a rehash of the 80’s cartoon — I just want to see more than a passing resemblence to characters I loved as a child. Though in some cases, even a passing resemblence would be a step in the right direction!
But that’s just me. Still may be a decent flick — time will tell.
Louis —
Thanks! I was thinking that you were talking about the Activision game, which was announced last June. Even ‘Ecks vs. Sever’ got a tie-in game — I can’t imagine something as big as Transformers going without one. Just as long as its as good as the PS2 version…
oh yea….peace
very well said Jay and I agree with some of the things you said. i agree that the designs should be modified to make it fit into “reality” and make sense, but these designs stray too much from the original subject matter.
i remember the spiderman fans getting pissed at the fact that green goblin looked like a robot. But to me it looked like a updated version of the original. If someone who didn’t know that there was going to be a spiderman movie and they saw a picture of the suit they would saw, “he that looks a lil like green goblin”. but if someone who watched transformers saw these pics and it didn’t say transformers anywhere, they would say cool looking robot. if they were then asked did it look like a transformer they would say hell no (at least the one I asked. did)
You can update the old characters with out changing their feel, this doesn’t look anything similar to bumblebee besides being yellow. you can’t honesty tell me that they couldn’t come up with a modern version of bubblebee that looked like a real robot and still looked like classic bumblebee
Man that looks awesome…
our game was never anouced to the public.
doesn’t mean that someone else isn’t still working on a version but.
Alfie,
While I do sincerly appreciate the explanation, I hope you noted the obvious sarcasm in the asking of the question.
I realize full well what you dislike about the design.
I was just pokin’ at ya a little bit.
Never-the-less, I hope you find something in the finished project that you like.
If not… oh well, your loss.
I, on the other hand, love the complicated design.
I believe these robots could actually turn into other things.
I’ve said it before, I’ll say it again, even as a young lad I saw and fixated on the obvious flaws in the look of the transformation process. The “cheating”, if you will. It took something away for me. It simply wasnt possible, the leaps and bounds they took with the laws of physics.
I could buy into a another life form. With a universe as big as ours, it just seems insane to believe that we’re the only sentient life in it. I could also believe that at some point artificial intelligence or “life” would spring from the mechanical. So all of the fantastical, or sci-fi, elements such as mechanical life from another planet seemed plausible to me.
Shrinking metal and disappearing wheels never did. The idea that Prime’s grill and bumper could magically change shape and size always bothered me. The idea that the aforementioned bumper could go from being a flat piece of metal to the size if his hip area was impossible. The thought that the sockets above his hips/bumper
in robot form could house his forearms when in alt-mode was crazy. The fact that the arches for his front wheels mystically fill up after he turns into robot form and become his solid (arch-free) forearms.
These are all things that are forgivable in cheap, saturday moring, kid’s show animation. It would be ludacrious to pull those same stunts in photo-real CGI. Every one of us geeks would be calling it the worst CGI in history because it would feel cartoon-y. It would be physically impossible for a real truck, via CGI, to transform into the classic Prime robot, because photo-real CGI is bound to the laws of physics. Wheels cant disappear into thin air. Flat steel bumpers cant morph into 3 foot thick hip socket areas. It would look laughable, and I hope somewhere in your jaded heart you know this undeniable fact to be true.
The kid in me would love to see a photo-real version of the classic Prime robot kicking the hell out of the Decepticons, but the adult in me would never believe that robot could turn into an 18 wheeler.
To me, this is simply an adaptation of these characters that will make them more believeable in the real world. In the end, it’s an adaptation that I thoroughly understand and have always desired.
You love the look of the Transformers. I love the idea of the Transformers, therefore I am not beholden to that one aspect. I am not in the position of being angry over one thing and unable to see past it. I would hate to be in a position like that and cheat myself out of a thrilling experience just because I couldnt see past a quibble like the “look” of the robots. The characters will still be there. The conflict will still be there. They’re history (minus the look) will still be there.
I know you are afraid of what Bay may do to your beloved Transformers and I know you are angry at what he’s already done, but as a wise man once said “Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering”.
You are one step away from suffering, my friend.
Make no mistake about it, you will be the one who suffers because I will get to see a Transformers flick without a year of anger, spite and hatred as a prologue.
Well…
I think I’ve rambled enough.
Hey Louis —
To clarify: The Transformers movie tie-in game got cancelled? When? Is there a press release on this? Being a collector, I follow Transformers news pretty closely and haven’t heard about that yet.
Thanks!
I feel Chris and Alfie are spot on here.
They all pretty much look like the same robot with different colours.
With the old designs you could see bits of trucks and car panels, wheels and stuff, which was supper cool. I can’t tell what Bumblebee is meant to be. And what’s with the gay morphing guns (like with the Chick Robot from T3), it’s so much cooler when they pull these mother fucker huge guns from out of no-where.
Any by the way, our Transformer Video Game got canceled by Hasbro Marking a few weeks back, so I sort of get the feeling that they aren’t really behind the whole movie that much either??
while i dont feel as strongly as alfie, im not a big fan of the designs. prime is decent but megatron and bubblebee aren’t transformers. the designs look cool enough and i understand the need to make it fit the times, but still….
transformers the movie was the first feature film i saw in the theaters and i dont want to see the live-action version be some X-Treme anime robot battle. granted if the designs were for “random robot movie” i’ll like em, but for transformers…no. this bubblebee should be the cybertron version and not the earth version, because the robot form looks nothing like the vehicle it plans on transforming into, thats what mae the old designs great, even in robot form you could see what vehicle they were.
cool designs, not transformers, and i will see the movie
peace
jay when I believe in something I show an unhealthy amount of dedication to my cause!!
here is what I don’t like about the designs…one they don;t look like transformers. they look like dime a dozen anime style robots of which i could go to the comic shop right now and buy toys of take pictures post them up and claim they are from the movie and you wouldn;t know if they were or not as they have no personality or “defining” look at all. totally generic. I. classic transformers looked like transfomrers., you saw one and you knew what it was..these could be any old shit…. I also hate how overly complicated they look…all bitsy and complicated and worst of all fucking ugly. no style.
the flames on optimus belong in a hot wheels moive and look cheesy and totally unnecessary…
plus the fact that ultimately behind all of this is one of the worst story tellers in the world. If i had trust in bay as a director then maybe I wouldn;t mind so much but once he was annonunced i just knew we would wind up with shit like this. all X-treme and totally fucking rad as he would no doubt say. the guy is awful and the film will be too. sure he knows how to direct a good action sequence – no denying but that is all he can do…..imagine if the film was in the hands of someone who can do maore thna make pretty pictures?? you know give us a film that has more to offer than some totally fucking wicked shots of robots fighting…and rumour has it the decipticons and autobots don’t face off until the last ten minutes of the film anyway…
we’ll see…but i am guessing another “could have been great” film from bay…as all of his filsm are.
Now just so I understand where you’re coming from,
what is it exactly that you dont like about the new designs?
I’m still not sure what you’re complaint is.
All in good fun, brother.
I still say you’re opinion will change once you see them transform.
Maybe not much, but I think you will understand it more once you see it in motion.
There it is!
Thats what I was waitng for.
Alfie, you are the MAN.
Dont ever change, big daddy.
awesome! more overly complicated changebots from the upcoming hot wheels film!
The design looks fantastic. I was on a site today but I can’t remember what it was, it was a toy version of Ratchet, if I get into the computer in college tomorrow I relocate the site I was on.
Oh man. His arm gun cannon thing looks sick. That’s awesome.
Damn! Does it get any better than this…
here’s a link to the full size pictures –
– http://www.harbx.com/images/desktop/transformers/bumblebeeboards_1680x1050_1.html
And dude,
I love the shoulder mounted rockets too.
I hope they make an appearance in the movie.
I have to agree with John here.
The entire design comcept of the movie is that these robots can actually turn into cars or trucks or whatever they transform into.
The cartoons and toys were not realistic in that manner.
Did you not notice that in the toys there was freqeuntly a giant robot head in the passenger compartment.
Hey Louis,
That’s the funny thing. The toys couldn’t REALLY work. These new transformers have been designed so that the mechanics of turning from cars into robots and back again actually works.
SO you see… your argument is in reverse.
The thing that was really cool about the original transformers was that the toys really transformed from vehicles into robots and back again. They should call this movie the Mighty Morphing Gay Robot as there is no way they can really transform any more.
Typo on “course” sorry.
I wish the picture was smaller. Sorry ’bout the sarkiness, we are a
bit flooded in Washington State right now. (NO Katrina levels of coarse.)
From what I see Bumblebee looks great.
HAHAHA!!! Thanks for pointing that out ouija! I’ll fix it.
Kiss ass or kick ass?