Now this is interesting. My friend and former Movie Blog writer Todd over at Twitch just emailed me about this developing story that is a bit shocking to say the least.
Apparently, Hitman (the upcoming video game adaptation) director Xavier Gens has had the movie yanked away from him by the studio at the last minute because the studio doesn’t like the amount of blood and violence in the cut of the film he turned in.
After being hired to shoot an adaptation of the ultra-violent video game Gens took Asian action films such as The Killer and A Bittersweet Life as his starting point and turned in an explicitly violent, very bloody cut of the film that apparently included a number of head shots and extreme gore moments that would have guaranteed the film a hard R rating. Which really shouldn’t have been any sort of surprise if the studio execs had been paying any attention at all – it’s not like they wouldn’t have seen the dailies or effects work ahead of time – but apparently after seeing Gens’ cut of the film the studio removed him from the project and placed Nicolas De Toth in control of a new edit of the film. Who’s De Toth? He’s the man behind the edit of Live Free Or Die Hard, a job he was hired for specifically to turn in an entirely bloodless version of the film and word is that this is his task with Hit Man as well.
So they’ve brought in the guy who edited Die Hard 4 into a basically bloodless movie (and to be fair, the guy did an amazing job… Die Hard 4 turned out to be one hell of a fun movie even without the blood and as a PG-13 film) to “clean up” Hitman. Ok, now let me try to look at this from both sides for a second.
ON THE PRO SIDE OF THIS MOVE
It’s a video game movie folks… a lot of the prime demographic for the people they’re aiming to get into the theaters to buy tickets for this are going to be under 18. From a business standpoint it makes sense that Fox would want a PG-13 film… the movie was basically made in the first place to attract that demographic, so wanting to avoid an “R” is common sense really.
A movie is not a directors baby… it’s the producers baby, so hell, Fox has ever right to do whatever the hell they want with Hitman. It’s their movie, not Gens.
Who cares… it’s a video game movie and therefore is going to suck regardless if it’s an R or a PG.
ON THE WTF SIDE OF THIS MOVE
Did the Fox guys not approve the script? Did they not see the dailies that were being turned in? Did they not have 3 reps on set at all times as the film was being shot? Did they not already clearly lay out with Gens what sort of film they were aiming for and that they did or did not want it to come in at PG-13? HOW ON EARTH DID THE CUT GENS TURNED IN SURPRISE THEM?!?!?
The only way this makes ANY sense to me whatsoever is that Fox MUST have been on board with the idea of an R rated Hitman from the start, and have just now changed their minds. Otherwise they’re totally incompetent (I think Fox is many thing… but I don’t think they’re incompetent)
Die Hard 4 (to my surprise) proved you can have a violent, action packed and exciting film without it needing to be rated “R”, and on that level I don’t think Hitman will suffer too much in the hands of a skilled and talented editor. Having said that… why was Fox’s expectation for Hitman CLEARLY communicated to Gens while this thing was being shot? Why were concerns not raised (or where they?) during filming? Why now suddenly change their minds? I guess we’ll just have to wait and see what comes out.
Shoot ’em Up lost tons of money, because the studio marketed the film like crap in center of the country (I live in Ohio, and only saw maybe 1 commercial for the film on any channel other than Spike TV).
Die Hard 4 was better than I though it would be when I heard they were editing it for PG-13, but the film still felt choppy, was confusing at 1 point, and dubbing a gunshot over McClaine’s catchphrase was inexcusable.
Towards John, your grasp of video game player’s ages is lacking, the average age of video game players is 33.
For Computer Gamers, only 30 percent of most frequent game players are under eighteen years old.
For Console Gamers it grows to 40 percent of most frequent game players are under eighteen years old.
Source: http://www.theesa.com/facts/gamer_data.php
Yes, making a movie PG-13 will open it to a wider audience, but with a movie based on an M-rated video game it will just as likely alienate the core audience for the movie.
Personally, I have played the Hitman games (I am 34). The trailers made the movie look interesting, even if Olyphant wasn’t remotely on a list of people I would consider for the part. I was planning to see it at the theaters, but if it releases at PG-13, I’ll just wait for the unrated DVD 3 months after it tanks hard at the box office.
Hey Thomas
You said:
“The game is rated “mature”. I was starting to look forward to the film, but I will pass if it’s PG13.”
This is the exact thing lots of people were saying when Die Hard 4 was rated PG-13, and it turned out to be a huge hit and one of the best action movies of the summer.
You also said:
“can you image if the Studio demanded a PG13 cut of “Shoot’em Up?”
Well, Shoot Em Up kinda proves the point… it was a hard “R” and ending up being a huge bomb that lost tons of money. Studios don’t like losing tons of money.
Also, it looks like I will just wait for the unrated DVD. I am still not thrilled with Olyphant cast pick (should have been Jason Strathom!!), so I am not too peeved at this whole turn of events (it is unfortuneate, though; can you image if the Studio demanded a PG13 cut of “Shoot’em Up?”).
The studio guys need to PLAY THE GAME. As a big fan of the game series, I can tell you it can be extremely bloody and violent (however, you are rewarded for stealth and as little blood spill as possible). The game is rated “mature”. I was starting to look forward to the film, but I will pass if it’s PG13.
I think I”ll wait for the uncut dvd. Truthfully, it doesn’t really matter what rating this movie has, kids who shouldn’t watch it will watch it, i.e lazy parents, and theaters that don’t enforce the rules. Enis
UH John…I know people at Fox and there are plenty of incompetent people to go around….
@Jason:
Hmmm…did you listen to the commentary, Jason? Faqua said the only difference in the unrated and the PG-13 rating was a few bits of dialog, two decapitations. a longer death scene from a character by three seconds, and an additional shot after the death of Lancelot.
Everything else remained the same.
*****
Now…on to Hitman.
I generally don’t think it’s cool the way Fox handled this. They could have told the director, make these cuts…etc etc (**for you can always throw them on the double dipped DVD and we can make a killing of our own!!**) and he could have made them. The original mandate was a R rating.
So this make zero sense to me…*unless*
Your source is wrong in that’s not the reason Fox took over the film. Maybe…the director’s assembled cut sucked egg baskets and Fox pissed themselves and are now attempting to salvage the mess.
Now THAT I can believe.
@John & Calviin: We need a group hug ;)
coming from the demography that they target (videogame fans, that is my assumption anyway) I find this bit of news particularly offensive. The reason I loved the Hitman series of videogames so passionately was the ability to so violently dispatch of characters in the game.
They are doing the franchise a disservice by removing the violence.
It’s was going to suck anyway because it is a videogame movie. But now its going to suck more.
I am totally cool with this move if they offer a DVD with Xavier Gens version of the film. (pretty pretty please)
why do studios keep interfearing???????
this will be a re hashed mess!!
what could have been a silent hit is probably no more :(
look @ avp pg13 — alrightish but still very disapointing!!
OH LOOK
avp 2 hard R rating and by the looks of it balls to the wall action and gore! released at XMAS!!
SIMILAR THING THEY HAVE TRIED TO DO WITH SWEENEY TODD!! REDUCE IT FROM AN 18 TO PG!!
REALLY GETS ON MY TITS!!!!
Ok, I took a step back for a few minutes to reflect on the conversation. I think there may be misunderstanding. Let me see if I have it figured out.
You believe that dropping the rating of the movie will bring in a bigger audience. I agree.
You think the game’s audience is mostly kids under the age of 17. I disagree.
You think kids under 17 play the game. I agree.
You think that means the game is made for kids under 17. I disagree.
I don’t think the bigger audience that the movie will get by being PG13 represents the portion of kids who play Hitman and are under 17. I think that the portion of kids under 17 who play Hitman will see the movie no matter what rating the movie is.
I think Hitman will get a bigger audience at PG13 because that’s what happens to most action movies that release at PG13 instead of R.
I don’t know if I missed anything, and I don’t know if any of our discussion has changed your viewpoint somewhere along the lines that I need to be correct on what i have represented as your opinion.
Oh, John.
I really do appreciate you having this discussion. Honestly.
I understand you don’t share my view. There’s no question that the movie studio is lowering the rating to get a bigger audience. I only disagree with the viewpoint of saying, it’s a videogame, so that means it’s for kids. That expresses the opinion that videogames are for kids. They indeed are not for kids, so making a movie about a videogame does not automatically make it a kids movie. Saying that dropping the rating will get a bigger audience has nothing to do with the fact that it is a videogame movie. Dropping the rating of any action movie to PG13 opens the door to a wider audience. That’s why it happens so often. Die hard 4 did not go to PG13 because it’s audience were that age, but action movie audiences are as young as that, all the way up to my father’s age.
Is it just me or do the trailers for this movie remind me of XXX?
Hey Calviin,
Wow, all i can say is that I personally think you know you’re wrong and are just digging in your heals. But if that’s what you actually think, then you’re entitled to that opinion. I just harshly disagree.
Michael,
I’m a little confused on how your house is living proof that a very large portion of Hitman players are under 17. How many people live in your house to make it an example of a large portion of Hitman players? Does the argument, “All my friend watched Firefly and loved the show” somehow prove that it had a big enough audience to keep it on the air? If so, everyone in my house DID watch Firefly, so please tell me when I can expect to see season 2 begin airing.
I was getting to your question. Please be patient as I create replies.
You keep ignoring the fact that the M rating is MEANINGLESS because it’s not enforced by anyone. At all.
It is not enforced legally. I understand. You seem to miss the point that legally enforcing the movies or games does nothing. It only matters if the people distributing the material conform to the legal enforcement. If a box office legally enforces the MPAA rating and a retailer enforces an ESRB rating by policy, (which Walmart, Circuit City, Gamestop, Best Buy, Costco, and more do enforce with company policy) the end result (he/she got to see the movie) is that underage minors are turned away. The result are the same, regardless of the method. If a person at the box office booth ignores the legal enforcement and lets my kid into the movie, or if a clerk in Best Buy lets my kid buy the game, the end result (he/she got to play the game) is the same, regardless of what can/will happen to the careless clerk. At the point were my kid could see the movie or play the game, legal or policy, it’s too late to change the fact that my kid got to see or play it. To the ends that I hope to achieve, making it legal and making it policy gives myself and my children the same protection.
“A HUGE percentage of people who play hitman are M or under. That’s just it.”
This is just the speculation that I told you about. You have made no more a point then if I were to claim the opposite. There is no evidence to back up this claim. I can just as easily say that a huge percentage of people who have seen Jenna Jameson naked are M or under. Porn is enforceable under the MPAA ratings. And yet, saying that doesn’t prove anything at all.
“em>Will making Hitman (the movie) a PG-13 movie vastly increase the number of the games players ability to see the film in theaters? Yes or no?”
If “the games players” is supposed to mean, the “players of the Hitman videogame”, then I would answer no. Anyone who currently wants to play the game Hitman, has likely already played the game. Anyone who hasn’t played the game, either does not have interest in the game, or has been restrained (either by personal morals or by parental/guardian influence, also known as “good parenting”) from playing it. The same reasons they haven’t played the game, will keep them from seeing the movie. Enforceable rating or not, we both know that if a fan of this game wants to see the movie, the rating won’t stop them.
My concern of the rating isn’t over the fans of the game. We know they will see the movie and they won’t be stopped. My point was that it should be R, to keep it in line with the game. If my kid is 13 and can see a movie, but can see the game that it’s from, it sends a confusing message. Your argument is that he can get the game because he is allowed legally, but unfortunately, legally isn’t the final say so for what my kid can play. Most stores do enforce the game ratings and have policies staing as such. Also, as a good parent, I would not allow him/her to play the game. Good parenting over rules legal permission in this situation. If law says yes and I say no, I win.
Sorry Calvin, campea’s got you owned on this. M doesn’t stop anyone from buying or playing the games. It’s just a suggestion for parents (who don’t have to be there to ok their kid buys it.
You can’t deny a very large portion of Hitman players are under 17. My house is living proof.
Calviin,
You keep ignoring the fact that the M rating is MEANINGLESS because it’s not enforced by anyone. At all.
You can quote what M means till you’re blue in the face, but all it is is a letter on the box that has no meaning or power.
A HUGE percentage of people who play hitman are M or under. That’s just it.
I notice you didn’t answer my question.
Actually John, I think we got off the point. I was originally saying that the demographic for the Hitman videogame is 17+. If your only argument to support that it’s demographic is for kids under 17, is your speculation that they are playing it because they do, then you’ve missed the mark. The game companies released the game with the 17+ rating. The intended audience is 17+. M rating is for 17+. There really is nothing around that. The arguemtn of kids buy it anyway is just as fruitless against the M rating as it would be against the R rating. The ratings clearly show the intended audience. What about the M rating does not tell you that the movie is intended for 17+? If you look up the rating’s definition, it clearly states that it is for 17+. If the company behind the game wanted players under 17, they could have made it T rated. Plenty of games have succeeded at T. The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess, the Medal of Honor series, The Sims 2, Bully, the Command & Conquer series, World of Warcraft, StarCraft, the Age of Empire and Age of Mythology series, the Battlefield series, the Soul Calibur series, most of the Final Fantasy series and The Sims series. Many of those feature the shooting of other people. The decision to keep the movie as M rated as not to attract the kids. It has a 17+ demographic. I have certainly provided an ample amount of evidence.
Thusly, the demographic is not under 17.
Here calviin, let’s just put it like this. Answer this question yes or no.
Will making Hitman (the movie) a PG-13 movie vastly increase the number of the games players ability to see the film in theaters? Yes or no?
Calviin,
Since both The Association of America and the National Association of Theatre Owners subscribe to the policy and activley enforce the ratings system and REQUIRE their member theaters (which is basically all of them) to enforce them… yes… it is enforced.
You’re defeating your own first arguement. You started this by saying “Well, since only M rated kids are playing the game, then there’s no problem for them to just make it R.
But now you conceede that the main players of this game are in fact not the M rated crowd. This proves my point.
Uuuuhh………………the movie IS called HITMAN, right? This isn’t the Cute Bunny Chronicles or something. Of course there’s gonna be blood. The kills are the main point of a flick like this, right? We certainly aren’t going to see for for babyface Olyphant.
Oh Calviin,
You’re missing the point as to why the two aren’t comparable in the least.
The MPAA is ENFORCEABLE
The ESRB is NOT
That mean, as much as the ESRB wasn’t to mimic the MPAA, the fact remains, 14 year olds are perfectly, and lawfully allowed to buy “M” rated games. They are NOT allowed (although for certain and without questions some are able to sneak in) in “R” rated movies.
Sorry man, the two aren’t the same at all. The ESRB is just a suggestion guide for parents… nothing more.
And let me just quote Wikipedia for you.
“Effects of ratings
Legally, the rating system is entirely voluntary. However, signatory members of the MPAA (major studios) have agreed to submit all of their theatrical releases for rating, and few mainstream producers (outside the pornography niche) are willing to bypass the rating system due to potential effects on revenues. Most films released unrated nowadays are either relatively obscure independent films, foreign films, direct-to-video films, made-for-TV films or documentaries not expected to play outside the arthouse market, or large format (IMAX) films, which typically contain minimal offensive content and generally receive a G or PG rating when they are submitted for a rating.”
MPAA ratings aren’t legally bound either. Unless the law is different on this in Canada, I’m sorry that you were led to believe otherwise.
Well, the argument can certainly be made that the game is played by people who are underage, but do you suggest that the movie isn’t also seen by those same people who are underage?
I’m sorry John. I feel I had an advantage here, because I expected you to make the argument you did. New waters for this discussion would instead be trying to find examples that don’t happen to R rated movies. We know R movies are seen by underage people. We even know that X and NC-17 movies are seen by underage people. The does not mean we should just forget about the ratings or to reduce all movies to PG13 and lower to “protect the children”, but instead, the people who are supposed to enforce these ratings need to do better and the parents of these children need to do a better job at parenting. Let’s just say that I’ve had this discussion before (too many times), and honestly, you can’t tear down the meaningfulness of the ESRB ratings without simultaneously being able to make the same comparisons to the MPAA ratings. The ESRB’s rating were specifically tailored to mirror the MPAA ratings because it’s an already familiar and established system. Now, if you want to do away with the MPAA ratings, be my guest and continue this line of thought.
Oh, and Calviin,
I know you don’t know any better, so please try to familiarize yourself with what the ESRB does and does not do.
Unlike a movie theater, just because a game is rated “M”, doesn’t mean a 12 year old can’t buy it.The ESRB is an awarness model, not an enforcement model.
15 year old are legally allowed to buy M rated games… there is no law against that. So you trying to equate the real meaning of M with a movie’s “R” is not applicable in the least.
I’ll take it easy on you because you’re so naive, but do try to educate yourself on this a little.
Hey Calviin,
You said:
“You may not know this, but the Hitman games are rated Mature (17+), which means that it’s only to be played by people who are 17 and older”
I’m very familiar with the game rating system. But wow man, if you seriously think that only people over 17 are buyng and playing this game, then I’ve got some great real estate in the middle east I’d love to sell you.
And if you think the main demographic that will be attracted to this film won’t but the under “R” crowd, then I don’t know what to tell you.
I have an issue with this part of your post John;
“<em>It’s a video game movie folks… a lot of the prime demographic for the people they’re aiming to get into the theaters to buy tickets for this are going to be under 18. From a business standpoint it makes sense that Fox would want a PG-13 film… the movie was basically made in the first place to attract that demographic, so wanting to avoid an “R” is common sense really.</em>”
You may not know this, but the Hitman games are rated Mature (17+), which means that it’s only to be played by people who are 17 and older, just like rated R movies are for people who are 17 and older. All the rules for R rated movies fall in like with the rules for M rated games, so the demographic of people who play Hitman is the same as those who would watch R rated movies.
I understand that you don’t know any better, so please try to familiarize yourself with the ESRB games ratings. As familiar as you are with the MPAA movies ratings, you should be able to easily see how they match. “Videogames are for kids” is a fairly ignorant thing to say and I don’t want you or the other readers to continue making this mistake, if not for yourself, then for the responsibility they have to their kids.
That said, The movie probably should be R rated. The game’s audience is already set at 17+ with the mature rating and themes. If you make a movie about the game that 13 year olds can watch, but can’t play the game for four more years, the IP owners are really sending a mixed message. It’s too late to drop the Hitman game’s rating since it is already on the market, so they need to keep the movie’s rating on par.
Great, just what we need another PG-13! When will these studios learn that people want R rated movies. Aslong as there good. I admit I did like the latest Die Hard. But, c’mon you knew it was missing something. Why not take Hitman and cut it to A G rating?
i always thought it was weird the studios want to give this a pg-13 rating……think about the game is rate M (basically a rated R game for those 198 and up) and the game is called HITMAN….its about a guy who kills for money…..im gettin tired of hollywood bitchifying movies to make more money…..as a film student I would be kinda pissed if i was asked to do a movie called HITMAN based on an adult game and then get told its too violent…..bullshit
Seems like a business decision to me. Release a PG-13 movie, then in 6 months, release the PG-13 version and the unrated version on DVD with all the gore included in the unrated version.
I agree with a lot of what you said here. There are two sides to this issue who both have some valid points.
Taking a film that was FILMED R-rated THEN editing it down to PG-13 has both worked and failed in the past.
Live Free or Die Hard managed to work very well even with the edit.
The theatrical PG-13 version of King Arthur was a completely different experience from the Director’s Cut.
I think the cut down version of King Arthur was terrible and the action scenes had NO impact whatsoever and were confusing.
I absolutely feel that the recent videogames violence debate surrounding the game MANHUNT had something to do with this decision.
There is a lot of heat right now on the videogame community and I am sure the Movie Company knows all about it.
However, i am disheartened a little with Hitman now.
Live Free or Die Hard was an easy film to cut. Since John Mcclane is a cop in a film franchise NOT known for its intense or violence there is not too much issue.
Hitman is about a cold-blooded asassin who KILLS people…in cold blood!
This guy is NOT a superhero, he kills people for a living. You have to expect SOME level of violence involved here.
I just do not trust the movie company to take the time to make the smallest cuts possible to edit out only the most graphic gore/violence and NOT compromise the script.
They will broad, cookie-cutter edits so as not to offend ANYONE, including 8 year olds!