Wow… if there is one place in the world I don’t think I’d want to be arrested for ANYTHING it’s in China. Everyone knows that the vast vast vast majority of DVD piracy happens in Asian countries… well it looks like China is doing something about it… and doing it HARD.
The good folks over at M&C give us this:
China says 9,500 people have been arrested and 8.4 million DVDs and CDs confiscated thus far into its 100-day crackdown on film piracy. Chinese authorities have raided 90,000 shops nationwide since July and have forced the once thriving and highly visible black market for Hollywood films underground, Daily Variety reported Tuesday.
They’ve arrested almost 10,000 people in 3 months?!?! WOW!!! Right now… the evil monsters at the MPAA are trying to see if there is a way to use the “Patriot Act” to legalize a mass roundup of people they suspect of downloading movies.
I hear ya, HandnHalfSword.
and thanks for the shout out.
I think I get so angry at this issue because I’ve been the victim of theft so many times myself. I dont have any tolerance for it. No matter how you phrase it.
Jay:
You’ve made some very good points. I think a lot of people are deluding themselves into thinking that they aren’t theiving when they take something that doesn’t belong to them.
Unfortunately we live in an era when property rights are not well respected by the government, let alone a lot of the people. The Target store where I sometimes shop was renovated just a couple months ago, and the bathrooms were vandalized within a couple weeks.
A friend of mine had her car window smashed out and the onbly thing stolen was some female hygene products.
My brother had a car window smashed out and all the theives got were a few CDs.
It’s no wonder that with all this disrespect for other peoples property that there are so many people who thing stealing someone else’s work (CDs, DVDs) is ok.
I completely understand what you are saying.
And I concede the fact that you dont download movies ( although how would I know that for sure. Either way, I concede the point )
My use of the word “you” was a generalization, reffering to the people who do illegally download movies.
But still, I take issue with some of your points.
They cant sell it to the person who downloaded it illegally. The person wanted it. The person has it. In order for this to take place legally, the person would have had to pay for it. If the person had taken the legal route this would have resulted in a $20.00 increase in the movies overall profits and a $20.00 decrease in the person’s wallet. Since he did not take the legal route this resulted in neither of these thing happening. in essence you are taking $20.00 profit away from this movie.
But answer my one question.
Is taking something that costs money, without paying for it, stealing?
Ignore any other issues or points. Not as a gift. Doesnt matter if its a car, movie, candy or toy. Is it stealing to take something that costs money without paying for it?
Does it upset you so much that I found flaws in your argument that you have to resort to “fuck you jay” and “pompass jackass”? Like “try to learn something new about the world” and “ha ha ha ha ha ha . thats funny stuff” werent passive aggressive insults. Kind of the pot calling the kettle black, dontcha think?
And to prove your point, you come up with “kind of, but not really”. Using the argument that just because the studio can still sell more copies of the movie as a way of proving its not theft doesnt hold any water. You admit that copyright infringment is theft of intellectual property but yet you still argue that its not theft.
What does how its labeled have to do with the essence of the act?
What does whether or not people care to investigate it have to do with the essence of the act?
What does how the offenses have been handled in the past have to do with the essence of the act?
What does what charges the MPAA levels at the offender have to do with the essence of the act?
What is the essence of the act, you ask?
Taking something that costs money illegally and not paying for it.
By the way, I do believe that a lot of the people who illegally download movies and songs from the internet, for their personal use and not for profit, don’t just download one movie or one song.
I’ve talked to inividuals who have literally downloaded thousands of songs from the internet, and who knows how many movies. More than they could listen to in some cases.
I would say that many of the not-for-profit pirates are akin to someone who feels the need to steal something every time he goes into a store.
he might take a Snickers from Vons, some batteries from Radio Shack, a Red Bull from Circle-K, and a pack of condoms from Thrifties. Maybe Vons isn’t going to be hurt by the loss of one candy bar, and Circle-K wont be hurt by the loss of one Red Bull. But it’s still stealing, and when thousands of people behave in that fashion, it ads up to a huge subsidy that the honest pay to the dishonest.
Mrkeen:
The undeniable fact that the owners of a movie still own the movie and have posession of the movie in no way makes the piracy of the movie less of a theft.
Suppose a writer creates a screenplay, and a producer of low-budget movies plagerizes the script and makes the movie with some minor changes. Now the writer of the scrips still has custody of his actual screenplay, and could produce it if he could get the financial backing, or sell it to a major studio. Sure he could. the unauthorized use of his script robbed it of it’s value. When a person pirates a DVD, they are robbing the owners of the movie of some of its value. Even if that value is just risiduals.
Now it’s hard to argue that Bryan Singer or Kate Bosworth should ever get another cent for the disaster known as Superman Returns. But if someone’s dumb enough to buy that DVD, they are legally entitled to their agreed upon share.
Let me put it another way. If I were to steel your car while you were out of town on a world vacation, put 20,000 miles on it, and return it to your garage, I would have stolen a great deal of the economic value of something that you paid for with your own money. I would have commited a theft, regardless of the fact that the car was back in your garage when you got home.
When someone makes 30,000 bootleg copies of Superman Returns, he has significantly stolen a great deal of economic value of the movie. The bootleger is also guilty of copying a crappy movie, but that is another argument.
When you bootleg movies, you are stealing economic value from the owner.
And…
Arguing over semantics was exactly what you are doing.
You argue that what you are doing is not theivery by saying it’s classified as copyright infringment.
Sounds to me like you were trying to “classify changes in meaning and form”. In other words, you are trying to classify copyright infringment as not being theft merely by the reasoning that it is reffered to as copyright infringment.
Armed robbery
Grand Larceny
Copyright Infringment
Even forms of Fraud (as in the ENRON case)
These are all terms the court system uses to distinguish different types of theft. You’ll notice that none of those titles have the word theft in them but they are all classifications of stealing.
What you stole.
How much money what you stole was worth.
How you stole it.
Are you so blinded by your desire to get movies for free that you dont even realize that what you are doing is stealing?
I said I was done, and I’m sticking to that Jay. But I will say this. Just because someone disagrees with what you say does not give you premission to be a pompous jackass to that person and insult him. You have your views, I have mine, I tried to disuss them in an itellegent way, you resorted to name calling. When you gain some maturity, perhaps we can discuss this further, but until then I’m done with this.
And to Ted, the issue is, unfortuatly, not as clear cut as that. By the time most films reach the theater, the crew and cast have been paid. Now there are some royalties that come into play, I will not deny that, but that really is not what my point was. Really what I was getting at is the fact that one recieves a harsher penalty for downloading a film than if he were to just walk into a Best Buy and take it off the shelf. That is the deference, in my mind at least, between the theft vs Intelectual property issue. If the MPAA were to bring about charges of theft to downloaders, as most people feel that they do, that would be one thing (and, personaly, I feel the right thing to do), but they levy this ambiguous charge of “Theft of intellectual property” and “Copyright infrindgement” that your average person doesn’t understand nor cares to investigate.
And the major difference between Enron and a movie pirate (not a comparason I thought I would ever have to make ^^) is that, while the movie pirate does aquare the film illegaly (again something I have never clamed to be untrue), the move still exists in the posession to the owner, to do with what he pleases, he can sell it, rent it, whatever (again, I’m working with a person who does not SELL the movies, that’s another matter alltogether). The execs at Enron removed the money and funds from people. While a strange difference, it is a difference nonetheless.
Really most of these movie pirating laws are still very new, and deal with an area of the law that isn’t all that black and white. Is it stealing, one might say yes, but on the other hand, the victim still has the film to do with what he pleases. Is it theft of intellectual property, kind of, but at the same time not really. It falls into this wierd, murky area that really needs to be hammered out in the justice system. Unfortunatly, the MPAA doesn’t want their cases to reach the judges, as they are sitting on a very benifitial system, they threaten to sue, and the offender gives them a great deal of money. They don’t have to follow constitutional guidlines to find this evidence, they merely have to accuse. I imagine in a decade or so there will be a law specificaly designed for the act of internet piracy without the intent to sell, but as for right now, we must pigonhole it in with other laws that sort of fit.
Oh, and to end this whole calling me a thief thing. I do not download movies. I work in the media, I make it a point to investigate things that may, one day, affect my buisness.
Oh, and just cause I feel like being imature: Fuck you Jay.
Thank you and good day.
thanks, Ted Kord.
See MrKeen
Thats how an intelligent, non-thief argues his points.
No contradictions and all dealing with the point at hand.
You know what…
what does monetary value have to do with the essence of the crime being committed.
If you take a piece of bazooka joe bubble gum that costs .10 cents, that doesnt hurt bazooka joe the company very much but you are still stealing it.
If you take a corvette off the lot that costs $50,000.00 that doesnt hurt Chevrolet very much… but you are still stealing it.
No criminal thinks the punishment fits the crime. But if making the punishment fit the crime is your argument, thats fine. I agree. It should fit the crime. No argument here.
Heres the breakdown for you.
You took something without any form of payment. The studios arent offering it away for free. Nobody gave it to you as a gift. You took it.
In one part of your post you chastise me for calling someone who pirates movies a thief and in another part of the EXACT same post you agree that piracy (or copyright infringment) is theft.
Are you really this ignorant?
I dont care what the MPAA wants it classified as. I dont care what the courts decide is proper punishment. I dont care if you think its doing any “real financial damage”. None of these things has any bearing on the argument at hand.
If you take something that doesnt belong to you… you are a thief.
Now, rather than coming into an argument and looking like a fool by contradicting your own argument and prattling off points that have nothing to do with the core argument at hand why not try preparing a little. It would make you seem a bit more intelligent to the world around you.
By the way, its not “petty name calling” when the name in question is accurate. That would be like telling me I am being petty by calling my dog…. a dog.
As I said earlier. I asked a friend who was a member of the patent bar. Theft of intellectual property is still theft.
If we look at Enron, there are numerous accusations of various frauds that have been levelled at executives of that company. Basically, they’re theives.
I would argue that piracy of intellectual property is a more serious form of theft than simply steeling a bicycle or watch, and is more akin to a white collar crime. Since the theft is being commited against multiple individuals (investors, actors, writers, directors) it is a complex theft more similar (in basic quality but obviously not overall damage) to the thefts commited by the Enron scumbags.
I would argue that it is obviously less serious than a theft that involves the threat of violence, such as carjacking and bank robbery.
The fact that so many indiviudals are the victims, and that the criminal is difficult to catch, the penalty should be harsh enough to deter the crime.
says the thief…
Ha ha ha ha! I like that Jay. “Deperate attempt to argue semantics” That’s funny stuff.
Here’s the break down for you. What is a copyright? Intellectual property, as Ted has pointed out. Theft of intelectual property is copyright infringment. Believe it or not, that is what the MPAA wants this violation of the law to be called. Not theft. Why, you may ask. I’ll tell you.
Say someone is caught pirating a movie and is charged with theft (as you would have it). The person would be charged in accordance with the value of what it was he stole, I’m sure you are with me to this point. Now, what is the value of the stolen movie, the most one could argue is the cost of either a ticket (if the movie was still in theaters), or the DVD (if in stores). Now this obviously does not count if the person is selling the movie (which I will go so far as to agree is a form of theft). Now, what will the court throw at a person accused of stealing a $10-20 movie? At most they will levy a $200-500 fine with a 6-8 month probationary period. That’s it. In reality it is a punishment that fits the crime, as the movie studios really haven’t had any real financal damages ($10-20).
Now when they charge someone with copyright infringment (theft of intelectual property), the laws don’t work the same way. They can claim damages FAR larger than the actual damages they have recieved. This is why they can get away with fines in the relm of $20,000 per infingment and upwards of five years jail time (which to my knowledge has yet to actualy happen to anyone downloading movies for personal use, but it still is a possibily). The MPAA helped create most of these laws back when home theater systems begain to crop up, the same way that record companies helped write the copyright law for thier medium (deep pockets can have an amazing affect on the legal system), and enough time has not yet passed for the system to right itself and realise that the punishment for downloading that copy of “Super Troopers” does not quite fit the crime.
Now, rather than resorting to petty name calling, why not try looking into things, and, mayhap, learn something new about the world around you. And I am done.
MrKeen is obviously a theif and he is making a desperate attempt to argue semantics.
Split hairs all you want, you sir, are a thief.
You have something in your possession that you aqquired illegally. That makes you a thief.
If you take something valued over $200.00, they charge you with grand larceny. It still means you stole something.
Again I say… only a thief would try to defend thievery.
Mrkeen:
Call me an obsessive dork, but on this topic I just got off the phone with a buddy who’s a law school graduate and member of the patent bar. Acording to my friend, piracy constitutes a theft of intellectual property. THEFT of intellectual property, is a form of theft.
Because the literal law you are breaking is not theft, it is copyright infringement.
When you pirate movies, games, software, etc, you are not a thief, you are a copyright infringer. While the title may not sound as good as thief, the fact of the matter is that is the law being violated. It will go to court as copright infingemnt, the man will be charged (and most likely given WAAAY to harsh of a penalty when compared to other crimes) with COPYRIGHT INFRINGMENT.
That is how someone can disagry that piracy is theft, because, in the eyes of the law, it is not.
From the 88 pt. IQ actress who whinks she’s an expert in international politics, to the rappers who spend ungodly sums on Bentlys and Escalades while rapping about how unfair America is, I’m no fan of today’s crop of self loving celebs.
But I don’t think any of these idiots should be ripped off by CD/DVD pirates.
The fact is that when you make something (even something bad like Superman Returns) you own it and have a right to benefit from others enjoying it. When someone improperly copies that (even something stupid like everything done by Puff Daddy), it’s theft.
I don’t know how anyone can disagree that piracy is theft.
You have a movie. In order for you to legally own that movie, you or someone else is supposed to pay for it. you nor anyone else paid for it, and yet you have it. How is that not stealing?
Yep, I think the spin lies aquarely in your court.
Like I said … the only people who defend piracy are pirates.
So continue to practice “copyright infringement” and keep telling yourself that you’re not a thief.
Sounds to me like your the one spinning.
Dear Poppe,
What effect are they having on the Economy? Well, when someone buys a bootleg DVD, there most likely not going to go buy the acual copy, or go to the movies to watch it. That means less money to the movie theaters, and it also means less money for stores, who arnt selling as much as they could, or would be selling, if consumers didnt have the luxury of buying pirated DVDs at half the price, in underground markets.
I wasnt talking about the celebs who are making 25+ million (like Chris Tucker). It is true, thats another reason studios are making as much, but its not the ONLY reason.
I’s sorry Jay, but “Piracy is stealing” doesn’t hold up under logic.
Movie piracy is not violating any theft laws, but rather it is a violation of *copyright* laws. You are (potentaily) making a profet off of someone else’s work, not stealing.
I hate to use someone else’s analogy on the matter, but it just works so well that I have too. I don’t remember who posted it, but it was on this very site (I’m paraphrasing of course):
Piracy is not like stealing a DVD from Best Buy, it’s more like walking into Best Buy, opening a DVD, copying that DVD, putting the DVD back into the case, resealing the case and leaving it on the shelf for someone to buy. Best Buy hasn’t lost the product, nor the potential for profit.
Make no mistake, Copyright infringment is NOT THEFT, no matter how the MPAA tries to spin it, it is mearly…well, copyright infringment.
The people that are being arrested are the shop keepers selling pirated movies not the people who download them and make them. Having visited China I know how open the selling of pirated DVD’s and VCD’s are there, I guess this just means that they will be driven underground like the selling of these in western countries. I doubt that this will have a big effect on the number of pirated movies watched in China, though their growing economy and cheaper legitimate DVD’s will have an effect.
And all those pirates will be back in business how many minutes after the next trade deal?
On my way to work this morning, I heard something about the Chinese seeking a change in their status within the World Trade Organization, and that this change would grant them more power within the WTO. A lot of the opposition to innitially even letting China into the WTO was based on their lack of respect for intelectual property rights, while supporters of China entering the WTO incisted that WTO membership would force China to crack down on piracy.
Could this crackdown have anything to do with China’s ambitions within the WTO?
Oh bugger!
RAAAARRRRR then I’m a pirate mister
Brian :)
I’m sorry, but piracy is stealing. End of story.
Nothing will ever change that.
Same as stealing a car, a comic book or money from your grandmothers purse. Stealing is stealing, no matter how you try to justify it.
You couldnt get away with taking a brand new Porshe off the lot just because you didnt feel like paying for it. Why should a movie be any different.
The only people who defend piracy are pirates.
I really dont think piracy is all that bad. The studios are accepting that there dvds are going to be pirated. At first they tried to tell you at the cinema about how its stealing – then they updated it to thrive on the experiance saying you would get the crap deal= fair play. Until they realise there will always be pirates and target some sort or note with the viewer to cause possable empathy they will never sucseed. Remember piracy does keep the price of dvd’s down. This is always a good thing my friends
Brian
You’ve gotta remember that China used to be (yeah, they say they still are, but c’mon) a communist nation that didn’t believe in things like intellectual property or copyrights. A lot of these people who are doing the bootlegging may be doing it both for the profit motive and for ideological reasons. Not that it isn’t amusing to see them getting busted, but I’m just saying. ;-)
Justice is served.
That’s too bad, ‘I KNOW SOMEONE WHO’ used to bring me home a bunch of pirated DVDs everytime he’d go on a business trip to china.
MPAA using the patriot act to snoop around? That scares me..
“dont know what impact their pirated DVDs are having on the American economy” wth does the movie industry and the fucking mpaa have too do with americas economy? Like the movie studios and its actors isn’t making enough money. I heard Chris Tucker was getting 25 mil $.
But people shouldn’t make money of other peoples hard work.
I don’t feel sorry for them as far as getting their illegal business shut down, but man, I sure as hell wouldn’t wish Chinese prison on anyone. (Well, not for something like movie piracy anyway.)
Well, I guess I feel sorry for those people, for the simple fact that they are trying to make a living, and a lot of them dont know what impact their pirated DVDs are having on the American economy. BUT, wrong is wrong, I think that the lesser “offenders” shouldnt get too severe of a punishment. But its good to hear they are doing something about pirating, its about time.