Hey there folks. Well, in this special 35 minute podcast Doug and I discuss everything we liked and disliked about The Dark Knight. This special podcast is FILLED with spoilers and is intended only for people who have seen the movie. It’s all of us international friends chatting about the film we all already saw.
So dig in, sit back, relax and listen to Doug and I talk about the pros and cons of The Dark Knight!
181 Comments, Comment or Ping
Booble Woodle
this is gonna be awesome
thanks guys
Jul 18th, 2008
bret
YAY!!!
Jul 18th, 2008
AjaxLou
Cut out the Hong Kong sequence - this is the poster child for extended scenes that belong on a DVD - and the movie would not be changed one iota. It would have played out 15 minutes shorter and would have been made for a tighter and leaner movie.
Eckhart impressed me more than Ledger did.
Great flick though. I’d give a 8.5 out of 10 as well.
Jul 18th, 2008
bret
John, you sound EXACTLY like bale when he is attempting his deep voice. I have to say just like in Batman begins, i LAUGH when bale talks like that. that would be my one nit pick for these movies, bale cant do a deep voice.
Jul 18th, 2008
Booble Woodle
Hey John
When Batman bends the barrel of the shotgun he did it with the help of the mechanical grip like thingies on his hand. you can even hear the machine noise when he does it.
However the “real” batman from the comic books CAN bend shotgun barrels but not the movie batman.
Jul 18th, 2008
PADTHAI
one of the complaints i hear is that the villain is more interesting than the hero. I think that’s true for the original batman series too. Ebert has said they could put anyone in the batsuit, just because they hire guys based on just their mouth.
Jul 18th, 2008
Corey
Question For John And Doug.
What Villans Would You Love To See In The Next Film?
Jul 18th, 2008
Booble Woodle
did two face really die? i’m pretty sure he lives
Jul 18th, 2008
mikey4402
John, about the bending of the barrel thing.
If you look at batmans hand after he bent the gun, he shows he has this mechanical vice grip thing in his hand… Im not justifying the scene because i thought it was extreamly dumb, but there you go.
I agree with the ferry boats, it seemed more like a saw scene then a batman scene and it was just retarted.
I total agree with doug about Twoface and the end.I actually thought from the boat scene on was etreamly dumb.
Overall i thought ledgers performance was chilling!! and christian bale made bruce wanye look like a bad ass!
Great Great movie overall!
Jul 18th, 2008
Max
I might be one of the few people that instantly knew Gordon wasn’t actually dead, mainly because I remembered in the original trailers they have that scene where Gordon does the “nothing in his pocket but knives and lint” line, and that hadn’t come up yet, was kind of an easy one for me to instantly spot.
Jul 18th, 2008
Kristopher Tapley
Yeah, he used something to bend the barrel, John. The Batman is about theatricality, after all.
The ferry boats scene was the beating fucking heart of the film, are you kidding me! If you hated that sequence, I would venture to say the point of the movie washed over you. Doug nailed it in his rebuttal.
And it isn’t flying in the face of reality (hyper-reality, that is, which is more accurate). This is the point of the franchise. Personally, it brought a tear to my eye. It was the perfect way to show the city had a glimmer of hope and maybe — just maybe — can do without the Batman……someday.
This is the point of the film. “Ruined it all?” “Throwing fiction into it all?” Surprised to hear you say all of that, to be honest.
The Hong Kong sequence was awesome, Doug. Shut your pie hole!! :)
You and I are going to go into the night with a bottle on this film, I can just tell, you ornery bastards.
Jul 18th, 2008
Robert(wolf)
This sucks I can’t listen till thursday :(
Jul 18th, 2008
Sir Jig-A-Lot
Thanks for the podcast lads.
Campea,you are being too nitpicky with the boat scenario. Nolan was just making with a morality play which fits in with the film’s overall themes. nothing more.
Douglas, I agree with you the film should have ended with Joker dangling, then cut to a Arkham scene with him howling away all straightjacketed in a cell. then cut to a coin being flipped & Two Face catching it while standing over some bodies. cut to credits
For the record guys, it was never clearley established that Two Face is dead. he could have been unconscious or in a coma.
The only person dead for certain is Harvey Dent as we knew him.
Jul 18th, 2008
Jayowen
John,
You can’t trust the Joker, I am almost positive that each boat had the detenator for their boat and not has the Joker said the detenator for the other boat. That is why he was expecting both ships to blow up.
Jul 18th, 2008
Kristopher Tapley
And they didn’t fucking kill Two Face, John. He’s alive. His tragedy — the entire arc of the film that matters — came to a close. He was forced to kill, to subvert the justice he stood for. And now he’s likely going to be put in the nut house. But he’s not dead. He’s the villain of the third film.
The passion behind the stuff you guys hated, I have to say, makes it sound like all of the positive stuff is apologetic and untrue. You sure you liked this movie?
Jul 18th, 2008
AjaxLou
BTW are we sure that TwoFace is dead? I think he is still alive.
Jul 18th, 2008
Joe H
About your complaints: Scarecrow IS a common punk. but he’s a prominent one. If you had a generic thug, THEN it wouldn’t have made as much sense. The scene was essential to show that Scarecrow doesn’t phase him any more. He’s small time. There needs to be a bigger villain than Scarecrow to take on Batman this time around, and that villain is the Joker. It sets that up perfectly. It also sets up the Batman impersonators, the dogs, the need for a new suit. All that too.
the Joker showed up at Wayne’s place because Dent was supposed to be at the party, and Wayne wasn’t ready to be in action as Batman. He was being Wayne for the party. However, without the party, he’s ready to protect Rachel. He didn’t have to be Wayne that night. The penthouse wouldn’t be vulnerable anymore. He could be ready as Batman. You guys didn’t seem to catch that.
About the boat - no one on either boat knew whether the switch actually blew up the boat. IT COULD HAVE BLOWN UP THE BOAT THEY WERE ON. That was the duality at stake. The triggers could’ve blown up the boat they were on and the other boat would take the fall. that was a possibility. That’s the tension there. You missed that, my man.Totally epic tension in that scene.
And if you don’t like the Two Face ending….I’m sorry, there’s no hope for you.that ending was every flavor of epic. Nolan said from the start, he was gonna pull no punches. You want him to save Two Face for the next film? No. this is Dent’s film as much as it’s Wayne, or Gordon’s, or the joker. If you don’t understand what Dent’s actions meant in relation to the Joker’s purpose in the film, then there’s no hope. If they held back on Two Face, then it’d be a waste of having Dent in the film. This final scene was so pulse poundingly incredible…it’s just i don’t understand how you don’t understand what the meaning was behind all that. You guys are the only ones I’ve ever meant, internet or in real life, who weren’t satisfied with Two Face. I know several people who fucking LOVE Two Face and this film blew them away. I’m just gonna end it there. Nothing left to be said.
People don’t love the Batman. They hate him. They hated him for not taking off the mask. They hate him for forcing the joker to blow up the hospital. they hated him all along. You didn’t understand this at all. Dent was the ultimate hero to Gotham. Uncorruptable. The batman was the lesser, necessary evil to the people of Gotham. If the people of Gotham saw their most uncorruptable shining example of law and justice be fracture by mad man, the people would lose their shit.
It’s like how the Joker talked about deaths with Two Face. Soldiers in Iraq - people don’t see it, it’s all part of the plan. If the mayor dies though, that’s a face - people lose their minds. Joker’s practically a sociologist. If the batman is the bad guy (the soldier), people can handle that. Dent though? The very face of Justice in Gotham? People would go apeshit. They’re both symbols, but Dent was the one people actually gave a damn about.This totally flew over your head. Sorry.
Everything else, down to the barrel bend, I agree with. good podcast, but guys, please think about these negatives a little more.
Jul 18th, 2008
Kristopher Tapley
And UGH! Sorry, as I’m listening, I’m commenting. But your take on the very end of the film proves that you don’t get the character. The people don’t love the Batman. They wanted him to turn himself in! He’s an outlaw and they wanted Harvey Dent to bring him to justice.
The entire closing soliloquy sums up the point of the scene. He is, as Gordon says, what Gotham needs him to be. If he needs to be a wraith, an ambiguous hero who apparently might just be willing to kill to subvert chaos, then so be it.
Perfect final scene. Just perfect.
That said, I agree with the poster who has issue with the growl. It’s something that has bothered me since the first film and I just haven’t wanted to say it, but it’s a but much, for sure. Nice impression.
We’ll talk.
Jul 18th, 2008
mikey4402
Sir Jig alot makes a good point.
Harvey is dead for sure. It shows his memorial in the movie. But i do get the feeling Two face is still alive.
Jul 18th, 2008
Dragonslayer
Here’s something interesting: When I went to see it in the theaters today, my theater is Westminster suddenley became the Dark Knight town. They took old posters from last year’s movies and put them in the coming attractions/now playing boxes, like Chuck and Larry, Lions for Lambs, etc., and graffiti-ed them to look like the Joker drew them. I thought that was brilliant. I shoulda gotten a picture. Did that happen to anyone else’s movie theater?
Jul 18th, 2008
Larry
1 - Yes, Two face/Harvey is dead
2 - Yes, the boat scene was stupid as hell
3 - Yes, bending the gun with one hand was stupid. Batman’s outfit is not robotic
4 - I think the Hong Kong scene should have been taken out
5 - No, Eric Roberts wasn’t bad
6 - No, having Scarecrow wasn’t a waste
Excellent podcast guys!
Jul 18th, 2008
Kyle
Just want to comment on the cell phone thing. I think its not so much about sonar as it is about as a metaphor for post 9/11 Home Land Security stuff.
Jul 18th, 2008
Kristopher Tapley
Dudes. Two Face isn’t toast. (Nor is Ra’s if you ask me, but hey…)
And bingo, Kyle. The phone thing is a total comic book moment with echoes of Oracle, but it’s also a slap in the face to the Patriot Act.
Jul 18th, 2008
Booble Woodle
how do you know that two face is dead?
he’s not. you can’t just kill a major viallin by falling three stories
he’s coming back
Jul 18th, 2008
Doug
I certainly hope he lives. He needs to be the next baddy for the follow up. I loved the set up for the character, just wished they would have left his revenge for the next installment.
The scene with him and the mob boss in the car would have been a bitchin’ way to start the next film.
Jul 18th, 2008
aaron
i loved it sooo much! but there was a spoiler in the trailer. remember when in the trailer it shows harvey with the gun in the car, and they had to choose between racheal and him? well, we knew who would be picked. but ledger freaking owns!!!! it was great
Jul 18th, 2008
Darren J Seeley
Did anyone catch that Easter Egg when Harvey Two-Face threatens Gordon’s family and as he swipes the son away…you see briefly in Mrs. Gordon’s arms… a daughter.
As to the question of the next villain. I haven’t the foggiest. But I can say without a doubt there is a line in the film meant as a joke by Lucious Fox regarding the new Batsuit. It would not surprise me in the least if the buzz started on Catwoman.
OR
Much was made about “Batman” impersonators/wannabes.
Whatcha think? Real deal next time? Azazel?
I was surprised to find Batman taking down Scarecrow. In Gio’s early review, he said “the cops” made the bust. But yes, Scarecrow was a waste. I would have liked it to be another Bat-thug if it was going to be that brief. Hell, I would have accepted Maxie Zeus or The Ventriloquist for as brief that was.
I didn’t have a problem with Eric Roberts.
The Hong Kong thing was fine, but *I* would have re-edited or scaled back the death of Gamble. Heath may have been chameleon in character, but I cringed at the character coming out of the body bag. Otherwise I really thought Ledger was really good. Oscar buzz? I can see it. But I would not overshadow Eckhart as Dent/Two Face either.
By the way…
Katie Who?
*is Two-Face dead? I don’t want him to be, I would have wished he was saved up more for #3, but y’know what? It’s a moot point. Dent was also slightly sucidal, (as Two Face he also blamed himself) and given the extent of his facial injuries, I would think he’d buy it in a short time anyway.
Of course, let’s say for the sake of devils advocate he did live. What would they do with him, exactly? The agreement was to make it look like he died in the hospital explosion (with only the Joker and a corrupt officer knowing the truth) and that Batman would be blamed for some of the deaths of the mobsters and corrupt officers (although it could be argued that a “copycat” Batman may have been part of this) …
Would they trust Dent, had he lived? He would be even more deadly, being an outcast, being presumed dead etc. Would they lock him up? What if he had surgery, and became (for a short time) a productive member of society again?
Look—they have Dent’s body. They don’t have Ras Al Ghul’s.
But we accept Ras is gone. Right?
Katie Who?
Hey, I’m one of the few who liked what’s her chimpmunk face in “Begins”. Maggie is 100% better. And *she* should get an Oscar nom. (Note: why do I think that when the character faces doom that some folks WISHED for whatshername…anyway…)
As for the surprise of Gordon’s death…I didn’t buy it either at first but as the scenes progressed, I thought, ‘there’s a possbility that lines/scenes were made up for a trailer. Indeed, some of Joker’s lines were said in different points of the film (”Why So Serious” “Lets Put A Smile On That Face!”) and I recall X2, where early movie stills of that film suggested Jean Grey didn’t die in that film. Even in ‘Executive Decision’ a shot in the trailer was made up for the trailer where it looked like Steven Seagal was on the plane before Kurt Russell.
So…I actually was let down a slight bit when Gordon was revealed to be alive. (A ton of faked deaths in this movie lol!) because I thought it took serious bat balls to pull such a twist.
Yes, the film is too long. But I’ll say this:
I sure hell loved it better than….that other film with Morgan Freeman from a few weeks back.
********
The more I think it over? I DO want to see Bane and/or Azarel (Jean Paul Valley) in the third entry should there be one.
Should?
Yes, int’l friends. You heard me and I won’t take it back. While $$ talks and BS walks, it will be really tough to top this. Who can play Joker after Ledger? We don’t want this franchise to get sour.
On the other side of the sword, if it is the end, WB will curse us with that JLA trash again…
Jul 18th, 2008
Roshan
I saw TDK today @12:05AM And I f***ing loved the movie like anything.
I thought the whole movie was perfect. Normally I agree with Doug and John’s opinions about the movies. But this time, it’s quite different. I don’t agree with the small issues, you have pointed out. I felt every little scene in the movie was there for a reason. If you take them out, I don’t see the continuity.
I too believe Two Face is still alive. And I just loved the way the movie ended. With Batman taking all the blame to save Dent’s dream and bring back hope to Gotham city. Also if he hasn’t taken the blame, Joker and his ideology would have won. I thought it made perfect sense.
Overall I believe everyone is more than satisfied with the movie. And Heath has won all our hearts. The whole day, I was just discussing with my colleagues about the Joker’s characterization and his wicked dialogues.
About the movie watching experience - The movie started with the huge applause and ended with a standing ovation. I never have had a movie watching experience like this, in my life. Fans were in to the movie hall, from yesterday around 11PM itself, for the 12:05AM show. Few of them were dressed in Joker costumes. It’s the best 2 hours 32 minutes I have spent for any movie. I’m not exaggerating. I really had a wonderful time. Wow, it was just a great day!
Jul 18th, 2008
aaron
roshan, i agree with you. it is also the quickest 2 and a half hours a have ever spent in the movies! it was soooo beyond great. words can’t describe it. one thing i cant understand though, why was there hype about the batman joker fight (you know the one in the trailer) when it was like 2 minutes, and i dont mean the tunnel scene, the one after it where batman and joker go at it for like 2 mins. it was a good scene, but all in all, i loved it!!!! my favorite line from the joker was “in people’s final moments, you see who they really are”. it freaking kicks iron man! it is sooo great!!
Jul 18th, 2008
Sir Jig-A-Lot
Hell No! Iron Man was a lot tighter & worked on several more levels than TDK did as good as it was.
Jul 18th, 2008
Kevin
Just saw and loved the whole thing.
was a little concerned about everything after they caught the Joker for the second time but Gordons speech brought the whole thing together.
when he called him the dark knight….wow
Jul 18th, 2008
Darren J Seeley
@Aaron:
my favorite Joker line is “I can make this pencil disappear”
:)
Jul 18th, 2008
kevin c
John, I have to say that having just seen the movie, that it IS that good. This film had so much depth, so much imagery, social commentary, humor, action and BALLS that I really dont know what else you could ask for from a story.
Ledger is so amazing that its depressing. Tomorrow he would have woken up and been the biggest star in the world, instead hes in a box six feet under. He really was incredible. The whole cast was great IMO, even Eric Roberts.
The first rule in films is you can never assume anyone is dead, so I will lean towards Two-Face being alive, I mean Batman survived pretty much the same fall without so much as a sprain.
The Jokers line that “we are just destined to do this forever” was awesome.
Now Im just rambling, but I give this flick a 10, I was going to give it a 9.5 because no film is perfect, but I just liked it more than a 9.5 and I really dont feel bad about giving it a 10. There is nothing I would change about this movie except Ledgers death so we could maybe see his Joker again in part 3. Thats the only bad thing about this film.
Jul 18th, 2008
Roshan
aaron, you are right. it was built up so much in the trailer and it looked like the final big battle sequence. When Batman and Joker came face to face, it just ended immediately. I didn’t even realize that till now. but the scenes that followed with joker in custody were mindblowing. At the end of it, the scene where Joker sticks his head outside the cop car savoring his triumph with the background music fading away to silence. One of the cinematic moments, I will remember forever. That was viciously beautiful!
My favorite Joker lines are……….
“Why don’t we cut you up into little pieces and feed you to your pooches? Hmm? And then we’ll see how loyal a hungry dog really is.”
“This is what happens when an unstoppable force meets an immovable object.”
And the brilliant ……. “you complete me”
Heath nailed it!
Jul 18th, 2008
Scott
I like don’t like how Two-faced died, but I see why. I saw him as almost a Shakespearean tragedy in this movie, more so than in the comic.
The boat scene was fine, I wished the Joker’s view was right though, but hey, I can even see it, “nobody want the dirt on their hands,”
Hong Kong scene was awesome!
Scarecrow didn’t bother me.
All of the acting was perfect, and Heath Ledger was amazing
I don’t see anything wrong with it imo, best film of the year, so far.
Jul 18th, 2008
doug nagy
The pencil trick set the stage quickly for how bad ass this character was.
Jul 18th, 2008
DarkKinger
I disagree with the flaws mentioned; I liked those plot points in the movie. If there was one thing that I feel they missed out on, its the boat scene: I think someone should have said, “What if the Joker is lying? What if we blow up our own ship?”, because I was thinking the Joker had to screw around to see who would be really selfish.
As for Two-Face, I would be all for seeing him return for the next movie. However, I also believed Doc Ock could still be alive after Spider-Man 2, and that never caught on. Still, I think Nolan could do more with Two-Face if he sees the potential for that to happen in a 3rd movie. Overall, it was a great film.
With that said, I won’t go into any details, but I will say this…
THEY HAVE A PERFECT SETUP FOR A GODDAMN BATMAN VS. SUPERMAN MOVIE!
Seriously, I know you guys weren’t happy about Batman making himself Gotham’s #1 target at the end, but that could be a great setup to have the cops fail at catching Batman, then Superman would rise to the challenge of stopping Batman. That is an epic event begging to happen. I think we are close, but it sucks to know that there hasn’t been any solid developments for a Man of Steel movie, and as far as I know, Nolan hasn’t made any plans for what a 3rd Batman film should be.
Opportunity is knocking to really build up a Batman vs. Superman film, and I have a really shitty feeling that chances are, no one will take that advantage.
Jul 18th, 2008
Robert
What baffles me about Chris Nolan is that he always emphasizes the notion of REALITY…THINGS HAVE TO BE REAL in order for people to take the story seriously and not disconnect from it.
This notion of reality is present in ‘Memento’, ‘Insomnia’, and to a lesser extent ‘The Prestige.’ Yes, ‘The Prestige’ was a little out there, but it was aesthetically consistent. WE knew from the start of that movie that it would be sci-fi. And it kept a realistic tone. One of the things that bugged me about ‘Batman Begins’ was the fact that the first and second act were grounded in this gritty reality, and then in the third act there’s a microwave emitter, etc. which took it into a completely unrealistic world. And it bugged the fuck out of me!
The Dark Knight does this again. Awesome first two hours! I was like “This is the movie I wanted to see made. I’m watching it!”. Then the last 20 minutes or so: I see a fucking blue screen which looks like a bad video game; SONAR MAPPING?! WTF?! A prisoner throwing a detonator off the boat? Harvey Dent wanting to kill Gordon’s son????? WHAT. IN. THE. FUCK. I wish I was as forgiving as you guys, but those things ruined the film completely for me. It seemed like a complete mess. I can’t believe Nolan didn’t see how god awful that CGI looked with the sonar mapping thing. Was he high?
Jul 18th, 2008
Kyle
Did anybody stay after the credits? I didn’t think anything was after so I left. Anybody stick around?
Jul 18th, 2008
Robert
And the boat scene. I would have loved to have seen one ferry blow up the other. That is reality. The Joker’s view is the truth. Batman’s view, that people have good in them is the false belief. “People will eat each other when faced with a dire situation.” That is the truth. Another WTF! moment.
Jul 18th, 2008
Brian
I agree with many of the things that you guys said about the movie
i thought that it was a f@ckn awsome movie and that heath ledger was amazing
just one thing that i disagree with, the scene with scarecrow and batman bending the gun you said that batman couldnt do that and that is true Bruce couldnt do that but i thought that it was obvious that it was a part of that suits technology, but i guess i was wrong but for the most part i completely agree, and i would have given it a 9.0 as a movie
Jul 18th, 2008
Jawmuncher
I hope that Two-Face isn’t dead. I loved the character and want to see more of him.
Jul 18th, 2008
James
Two face CANT be dead~
In the scene where batman interrogates the mob boss he throws him down like 3 stories and is clearly (and hilariously) still alive!
&
Batman while saving Rachael fall from the friggen penthouse onto a taxi hundreds of feet below and neither are seriously injured
just by these two occurrences its clear that two face is not only logically able to still be alive but his survival is almost foreshadowed buy the assumed death and contrary logic
The movie built up so much momentum that the storyline train ran off the tracks at the end but it still reached the station, even if it may have been screeching to a halt and took out the flexibility of the two face character in the end.
y so serious?
Jul 18th, 2008
James
Two face CANT be dead~
In the scene where batman interrogates the mob boss he throws him down like 3 stories and is clearly (and hilariously) still alive!
&
Batman while saving Rachael fall from the friggen penthouse onto a taxi hundreds of feet below and neither are seriously injured
Just by these two occurrences its clear that two face is not only able to still be alive but his survival is almost foreshadowed buy the assumed death in addition to the contrary logic.
The movie built up so much momentum that the storyline train ran off the tracks at the end but it still reached the station, even if it may have been screeching to a halt and took out the flexibility of the two face character in the process.
Why so serious?
Jul 18th, 2008
Robert
Yeah, apparently, it is part of the suit. It’s like a high pressure device in his glove that can crush objects. It was in the EW magazine.
Jul 18th, 2008
shadopup
As far as superhero movies this one is on a whole other level. What this film aims for and accomplishes makes it transcend the usual expectations of a superhero movie.
This is a deep and a thought provoking film. I could analyze why the characters’ actions and motivations as well as the situations they find themselves in and what these situations say not only about the characters but about Gotham as a city and its people. By extension what this says about people in general. As others have said, the morality plays and the social commentary make this film above and beyond a superhero movie. It is simply a movie.
After watching this film I was completely satisfied with it even if it didn’t meet all my expectations. What it set out to do it did so convincingly enough for me to accept its stretches of disbelief and flaws within the context of its own movie world.
I did not feel it was too long at all. I was never bored, whatever was happening be it drama, light comedy or action was always compelling. In fact, I can’t really think of scene that should’ve been cut. Both Ledger & Eckart were mind blowingly amazing. Acting all around was solid although Eric Roberts was fairly pedestrian, not bad but not great. Then again, he didn’t really have much material to work with.
It is not a perfect film. Although there is plenty of action to go with the drama I never felt that Batman was ever in serious physical danger. The danger if there ever was any was more in the decisions he had to make. I’m not sure if I’d say the action overall in this movie is better than the first but the fight scenes were definitely better in the first. I found a few action sequences a bit confusing. I wasn’t sure what the heck Batman was doing with his tumbler when the Joker was shooting bazookas out of the truck. I would think the tumbler would simply be able to take the truck out in the first place with all its fangled technology. Y’know shoot out the truck’s tires or something but what does Batman do with it? Use it to absorb some bazookas? I dunno. Having the motorcycle come out of the tumbler? Kinda stupid but then again I was never a fan of the tumbler and don’t think its design is real world practical at all. It was extremely cool how Batman did take out the truck on his motorbike afterwards. I didn’t think Gordon was really dead mainly because the film cuts so quick from the shooting. He was gone long enough for me to think it was a remote possibility and certainly I wasn’t expecting him to come back at the time he did but I was not surprised that he did come back.
There are certain stretches in believability that are done in order to get the characters into certain circumstances but it is these circumstances that are so interesting and make you wonder what will happen, what will the characters do, how will they react? Even so these stretches are never used as a cheap or lazy way to move the plot along or resolve conflicts.
The two boats scene was kinda silly but I understood what its purpose was. If you complain about that scene you might as well complain about the entire Joker character being able to pull off all these elaborate stunts with hired goons. I never thought of it at the time but the possibility that each boat in fact had its own detonator actually makes that scene even stronger. Heck maybe each detonator detonated both boats. The Joker gives two or three conflicting stories about his face scars. He doesn’t end up killing the mayor so whose to trust what he says and that’s what makes the Joker a great villain. You don’t know what to believe because he’s capable of anything but he’s not a glutton.
Back to Two-Face. I wasn’t entirely convinced at his turn to evil, the acting was amazing but I found this was more a failing of the script. It seemed to me that all it took for Harvey to go over the edge was Rachel dying. I would’ve expected more than that but perhaps a second viewing of the film will reveal something else. How his face got burned was quite clever. I am also confused about whether Harvey/Two-Face died at the end or not. I thought he did, my friend thought he didn’t.
In the context of the movie itself, it all works. It’s really more of a dramatic movie based on solid characters. It’s not a crowd pleaser popcorn flick like Iron Man or Spider-man. It’s not necessarily better than those movies but in my mind you shouldn’t even compare them. I feel that The Dark Knight shouldn’t even be compared to Batman Begins. It’s hard for me to explain but it would be like comparing a comedy to a drama that are each of equal quality. The aspects which defines each a success are completely different and sometimes at odds with each other.
I’ve been careful to say this film goes above and beyond superhero movies. As far as comic book movies are concerned, Ghost World is one of the best as a film that can be taken seriously as art. I think The Dark Knight is the first superhero movie that can be taken seriously as art.
Before I watched this film I was a bit annoyed that it didn’t have the world Batman in the title but I think I can understand why. I still think it should’ve had the name in it though just to be consistent in its naming. Ever heard the nintendo nerd complain about movie sequel names?
I don’t know what story can be used to follow up this one. If Ledger was still alive, another Joker story could’ve fit the bill but I don’t think you can find an actor who can match his performance. I am not totally knowledgeable about Batman but as already mentioned, the only thing that could follow this up and even further explore the themes from this film would be to have Bane and Azriel.
I can definitely see the influence of Batman Year One and The Long Halloween in this film and like the first movie it successfully put some new twists and variations on Batman’s early years.
Jul 19th, 2008
Michael
Okay not trying to start a new thread but, my favorite joker moment was, something that the writers should get credit for. Joker fucking with batman and giving him Dent’s location and not Dawes. When Batman opened the door it caught me completely off guard. Whoever is responsible for that little twist knew the joker character completely. It does add to the argument that the ferries if they pressed the button could have been blowing up both boats not just their own. Why will ledger get nominated because he knew exactly what the joker was inside and out! freaking awesome. What were some of your favorite joker surprises….. LOLOLOL
Jul 19th, 2008
Michael
John did you ever think that maybe the ending became what it was, because of the death of ledger. Nolan could have thought that two face would have to end the movie because there would be no joker in the third. I do think that it is possible that Dent/two face isn’t dead. You see a memorial for Dent but that could be anything. It wasn’t a funeral. And unless you see the body go into the ground(unless its a zombie movie) there is always a possibility that he can be alive. Its a comic book movie. If soap operas can figure out how to bring back dead characters they can definitely do it in a comic film
Jul 19th, 2008
Frederick Zander
First off you guys are great this is my first time ever listening to a podcast and y’all didn’t dissapoint. I totally agree with your criticisms, especially with your criticism of the ending. I personally would of rathered see the Joker fall to his death for the obvious reason that I do not believe anyone could ever top Heath Ledger’s role as the Joker. I also realize that you would of needed a soothsayer there telling Christopher Nolan about the death of Ledger. Also ending the movie with the death of Two-Face was weak, I totally agree that Two-Face fans got cheated out of a character. Great Podcast and I look forward to listening to many more….Greatest comic book movie ever!
Jul 19th, 2008
Sound Designer Dan
A stream of consciousness post after viewing completed film…
I agree with the two-face part. He should not have been killed off in this film. It felt that it had a Venom-like/Spider-Man 3 quality to it. In this film, they should have just let two-face kill that tubby cop and THAT’S IT. I would have also liked it if they never showed dent’s scarred face UNTIL the part with the fat cop.
I don’t agree with Doug about having a scene with Joker going to Arkham. I feel that it turns the film into the shitty Schumacher versions where all the villains just were brought into arkham at the end of both films that he directed.
Ledger, of course, was simply magnificent as the Joker. Not for once did I think of Heath Ledger when watching him in the role.
Thought that Scarecrow was a waste.
The Nolans had some balls killing Dawes off. I was shocked and satisfied after her death.
Didn’t like the sonar thing they used to find out where the Joker was but I began thinking what else could they use to find him? That thing on Batman’s eyes did look silly though. I don’t know why he couldn’t just turn the goddamn thing off.
Felt that the ferry boat scene was important to the film as was the scenes in HK.
Thought that the final speech by Gordon was awesome, completely awesome. It was like putting a stamp on a great film. Felt that the score in the sound mix was a bit high during this speech though.
Not for once I felt this was a comic book movie, unlike Iron Man or Knight’s predecessor Batman Begins.
It’s sad that we won’t see the Joker again. I really wanted him and Batman to do battle once more.
I give The Dark Knight a 9.5 out of 10.
Jul 19th, 2008
Sound Designer Dan
Oh yeah, one more thing after all the positive reviews this film got, what’s with all the sudden negative reviews? Dave Kehr, Bob Cashill, Tom Long, and others just slammed it for being too dark and too stupid (all the white giving credit for Ledger’s performance).
Jul 19th, 2008
Rusty James
Hey Gio, don’t you think it’s a little inconsiderate to post pictures of Two Face right on the front page, above the fold, less than 24 hours after the film opened?
Jul 19th, 2008
meijiOrO
I can totally see now why you said the movie was too long. That being said, that movie was made of EPIC AWSOME! Question. After Bruce gave Harvey the choke hold, when he told Rachel to get out of there was he doing that in his “batman voice”? That would be awsome if it was cause it would show that even with Rachel who knew his identity he just automatically goes all batman.
Jul 19th, 2008
handle
The Dark Knight has surpassed Stars Wars midnight opening record.
Now it has surpassed Spiderman 3’s first day opening record.
(this is what I’ve read)
YAAA! Biggest move ever!
Jul 19th, 2008
Britt
Guys, thanks for the podcast. It was great. I saw the movie in a regular theater first and really dug it, but found the scope of it almost too much to process at once. Then I saw it at IMAX and was just, overwhelmed, ha. the IMAX stuff was almost TOO good, because all I could think about was how awesome it was and forgot there was a movie going on. But I loved it.
I thought all your criticisms are really valid. I didn’t agree with all of them, but at least completely get where you’re coming from with every one. I think all your suggestions would have made for a movie that was every bit as good, just different.
The only one I want to offer any insight into was why Harvey went after Gordon’s family, because I think it does make total sense. Harvey had tried to convince Gordon that Wertz and Ramirez were dirty cops who didn’t belong on the force and shouldn’t be trusted. Gordon insisted they remain on his team, and then it was those two that delivered Harvey and Rachel to their respective bomb-filled warehouses. If Gordon had listened to Harvey, Rachel would still be alive.
Yes, the Joker is what everyone will remember, but it’s not intended to be a Joker movie. It’s a Gotham movie. I loved the title of the film, but as I thought about it yesterday, I thought a more appropriate title would have been “Gotham Knight” or “City of Gotham”. Harvey’s rise and fall and what it means for the city’s future was essential in my mind, though I agree there are pacing problems with the final act of his story.
Jul 19th, 2008
kevin c
The Batman voice is a little ridiculous but once you get sucked into the story it just kind of blends in. The only time I thought it stood out in a bad way was at the end after the fall and Batman and Gordon are talking. Batman is winded and also has a lispy thing going on with the growl and its kind of silly.
I agree about Gotham being central to the story, it really is awesome how this story works on many different levels and from many different perspectives. You get a sense of what each part of the city is feeling, from the cops (clean and dirty) citizens, public officials, vigilantes and criminals. Truly great story telling.
Jul 19th, 2008
entertainmenttodayandbeyond
Great Podcast! I thought the Dark Knight was great for the first two hrs of it’s running time and at that point as good as any sequel ever made.Some air started ot come out of its tires in the last half hr when they try wrapping up the TWO-FACE story line. Personally I would have ended that story arc when he walks into the bar and continued it a llittle, but not a lot further in the 3rd film. Despite a bumpy last 30 minutes still a terrific movie overall! .
Jul 19th, 2008
Luke
i wish they’d have killed the Joker off. It feels to open ended as if he’s going to come back.
Jul 19th, 2008
Spazmo
I’d like to add that those who have watched the movie would have noticed in the (overly extended) finale (which went too long in my honest opinion) that Two Face was not killed. Batman was in a dilema as to if he should eliminate, or save and give the benefit of the doubt.
Two Face was not killed off…which is good! So long as they dont waste a villain like they did with Scarecrow
Jul 19th, 2008
John
YES TWO FACE IS DEAD
He died from the fall. They had the funeral for him. There is NOTHING in the movie to even remotely suggest he was alive. NOTHING. Batman and Gordon decided to hide the TRUTH… not hide Harvey.
Batman didn’t take Harvey’s “unconscious” body with him somewhere. The cops showed up, and Harvey was DEAD. PERIOD.
Jul 19th, 2008
booble woodle
Enough about two face
I just heard the dark knight set a new one day box office record taking in 66.4 million
Jul 19th, 2008
aaron
i know i heard it too!! man this movie was great!!
Jul 19th, 2008
Robert
I thinking about it more, and you guys and myself are nitpicking parts and saying “This part is unrealistic,” “This part is illogical.” But when you start to think about it, almost everything is illogical. I guess, on some level, all movies are…
Jul 19th, 2008
goodbar1979
yup 66.4 million on friday!!
new opening day record :)
Jul 19th, 2008
bjon86
Okay, I am SO happy I saw this fuckin masterpiece last night cuz if I had come on here and seen that fuckin TOTAL spoiler picture of 2 FACE, I would’ve KILLED somebody. I mean, JESUS MAN, it’s only been a DAY since the movie premiered. Chill out. Wait at least passed this weekend before you start posting spoiler picks and shit.
Jul 19th, 2008
John
Hey Bjon86
That picture has been all over the internet for months.
Jul 19th, 2008
Adam
JOHN JOHN JOHN! I know you believe that Harvey Dent is dead, but he isn’t. They would not waste a character like two-face. He was only two-face for twenty minutes and they certainly aren’t dumb enough to waste that. SO HERE IS WHAT MOST LIKELY HAPPENED… They put Harvey Dent in Arkham Asylum and faked his death so the city wouldn’t know the truth about how crazy he went. THAT IS WHAT HAPPENED!
Jul 19th, 2008
John
Hey Adam,
That’s great optimistic thinking, but there is NOTHING to back that theory up. The secret is between Gordon and Batman. Harvey died… it was STUPID that they killed him, but he’s dead.
IF they were letting all the cops who showed up in on the secret, then there wouldn’t have been any need for Batman to run at the end would there?
Sorry man… he’s dead. I wish he wasn’t, but he is. There is NOTHING to suggest otherwise.
Jul 19th, 2008
shadopup
As if I didn’t type enough the first time. Another thought that came to mind about the length of the film. The reason I didn’t think it was too long is that if it were ended about 30mins earlier, you’d have a loose end or two with Two-Face, it wouldn’t have made the film bad but I prefer movies that don’t have an obvious to be continued type ending like Batman Begins. I want the main plots resolved and all characters accounted for. I feel the extra 30mins to conclude the Two-Face arc was necessary and brought the film’s themes together to a logical conclusion putting Batman in a position to make a tough choice with Gordon by taking the fall for Two Face as Harvey did for Batman earlier. This I thought was the most effective ending the film could’ve possibly had.
If you want to talk about a story where it doesn’t end where it should look no further than the Lord of the Rings books. Frodo destroys the ring, end of story right? Wrong, there’s like another 100 pages or more after that (Thankfully Return of the King didn’t add that after ring nonsense which is why the films are better than the books).
Jul 19th, 2008
Brandon
Fantastic movie.
I can’t even stress how much I enjoyed that. I was worried about all the ridiculous praise and massive hype that I would end up disappointed..however, I was not.
I enjoyed that movie than any super-hero/comic based movie that I have ever seen.
My only gripe is with Batman’s voice for the most part. Although..when he was after Joker in the interrogation room..it was perfect.
Great, great movie. Loved it.
Jul 19th, 2008
Kristopher Tapley
Dammit John, Two Face is so not dead. It cracks me up that you desperately want to believe that, though, so you have the basis on which to hate the moment in the film.
The two instances of falling and surviving a poster above mention is a clear parallel, I think, to indicate that he could survive the fall.
By the way, the best way to preserve what Dent stood for, as well as his legacy, is for him to be dead to the public. So of course there’s a funeral scene.
But you don’t really expect Nolan to lack the professionalism to allow the character to go out on more than the whimper we saw at the end of this film, do you?
The original trilogy concocted by Nolan and Goyer (this has been widely reported — surprised you haven’t been privy) involved the Joker as the second film’s villain and Dent as the third film’s villain, with the Joker’s trial as a plot-point as well.
Don’t be surprised if Dent shows back up, pal. And I swear I won’t say “I told you so” in three years.
Jul 19th, 2008
Dragonslayer
Screw all y’alls this movie was the best superhero film since X2. 10/10. I don’t care about the running time 4 this movie. I don’t care about anyone’s opinion, this is the best of the year so far and so much better than Iron Man.
Jul 19th, 2008
Dragonslayer
Heath Ledger as the Joker=most memorable preformance and character EVER. Period.
Jul 19th, 2008
Michael
I just read that Batman made 66 MILLION for friday. Thats crazy! Well lets see if it can keep its pace and beat the spidey record. I hope so. This is much better than that tobey shit
Jul 19th, 2008
someone
man…you need to check the movie more than twice cuz you are missing shit like, for example, if they (gordon,batman) let the ppl of gotham know that harvey killed those 5 ppl (well…actually ramirez didnt die I think), then the joker would have win…they talk about it like twice and you didnt talk about it…also, he PUT A FUCKING GUN TO GORDON CHILD!!! yeah…ppl of gotham would have accept that right??? yeah…HE SHOT BATMAN!!! tell ppl of gotham that…and see what happen!!!
the thing with the ferries was great and yeah, AS YOU CAN SEE IN THE MOVIE the prisioners wanted to push the buttom first…but, the police stop them with the gun shots…so dont say it wasnt realistic, because it was…
have you seen that thing like a claw that batman uses at the beggining of the movie…that’s how he can bend a gun shot…watch it over, or get some of the DC direct toyz (one of them has this kind of claw) and you’ll see he use it to make more damage…
btw great podcast, it was fun to listen, yeah the hong kong scene was the shit!!!, and the guy whos making the bale’s batman voice…TOP NOTCH!!! haha you nailed it great!!! god job gentlemen…
Jul 19th, 2008
downbeat
I didn’t even know Two-Face died. I thought he was just knocked out. I also didn’t like the Two-Face storyline, and I thought they should have left him open for the third film. The boat scene was dumb and I wish the film didn’t spend as much time on it that it did. I give it a 8.5 out of 10 as well.
Jul 19th, 2008
John
Sorry Kris, Dent is DEAD
Once again I repeat, there is NOTHING in the movie that suggests Dent is alive. NOTHING.
He Died
The secret is just between Batman and Gordon
If Dent was alive, the 50 cops who showed up would know
If Dent was in Arkham the press would know, the inmates would know, the staff would know.
If the funeral was “faked” then they could never allow Harvey his freedom again for the rest of his life because the public could never be allowed to know he was alive.
Batman wouldn’t hold someone prisoner without the law and without a trial
Batman had to run at the end because HE KILLED DENT and took the blame for the other stuff Dent did. If Dent wasn’t dead, the other cops wouldn’t have had to chase Batman would they?
Sorry folks. I WISH Dent was alive, but he ain’t. Any suggestion otherwise goes against every fact in the movie and is pure speculation.
Jul 19th, 2008
kevin c
I agree that we are meant to believe he is dead, and in all likelyhood the script reads “Dent lies dead on the pavement”, BUT if they did want to bring him back in the future, there is enough there to explain away his survival and the cover up concerning his death.
Perhaps he survives and Gordon is trying to keep it hush hush, but as time goes by word gets out that Gothams “White Knight” is indeed alive and locked up at Arkham. You could do something with that plot-wise.
Jul 19th, 2008
spiderfreak182
He’s dead.
Jul 19th, 2008
kevin c
Says you.
Jul 19th, 2008
booble
John, you are gonna be eating so much crow when it’s revealed that Harvey is gonna be in part 3.
Jul 19th, 2008
nova
I agree with John about Dent being dead. Far as we know, for the purposes of that narrative, he is dead. Just because people come back from the dead in movies and comic books doesn’t mean he will. There’s nothing in the movie that remotely suggests the death was faked. But, if they wanted to bring him back for a sequel they could. John’s point is, we’re all so conditioned by characters coming back from the dead in these kinds of stories that it’s hard for us to believe they are dead. I think, for all intents and purposes, the chapter on Harvey Two-Face is closed. If the filmmakers retro-actively decide he’s NOT dead, then so be it. But that hasn’t happened yet.
Jul 19th, 2008
AB
i finally got to see it the film, and to be honest you guys are right doug, jon
i didnt like the ending at all.
the part were the people where in the boat was fine one had to blow up the other to survive.
its a shame that heath ledger past away. The only thing i can think of that would be a great ending is think it was you doug who said that the joker would put in arkham with a straitjacket.
that would be a perfect ending. when batman starts leaving the cell the joker would say “i’ll see in couple of hours “…. hahahhahahah
Jul 19th, 2008
AB
oh i almost forgot harvey is dead, 2 face is alive. :)
Jul 19th, 2008
kevin c
I completely agree with Nova. I guess the point Im stressing is that we wont know until (if) part 3 is made. I do believe there is a hint of ambiguity in there though, possibly playing on the very idea of people debating whether or not hes dead. Its all in good fun.
Jul 19th, 2008
aaron
the joker got arrested right? cuz he just kinda dropped off
Jul 19th, 2008
aaron
after that (SPOILER) scene where the joker tries to blow up that ship, just before harvey tries to kill gordon’s family
Jul 19th, 2008
handle
another for dead. Dead dead dead.
As much as I want him to live and wish he did. No, he died.
Jul 19th, 2008
DarkKinger
This has been a really great discussion. I like this.
You know, The Dark Knight has set itself up to where we got the answers, but leaves itself open for us to come up with our own conclusions. I’m not saying that counts with Two-Face, but we don’t know if the detonators would have blown up one boat or all of them, since Joker kept changing his “face-cut” story and tricked Batman to save Dent instead of Rachel.
But, I will say this; Unlike Spider-Man 3, The Dark Knight actually had me convinced that Batman would lose, and that’s one of those things I wish more movies would have these days.
Jul 19th, 2008
Adam
After explaining that John, I completely understand. You proved me wrong.
Jul 19th, 2008
aaron
i know i wanted the joker to win!! but hey great movie! my favorite part was the whole entire boat scene, that also included the building scene with joker and batman hen the joker almost falls. but john, about the last 30 mins, i thought it was perfect for the movie. but hey, you have you own opinion, and thats cool. i also thought the tunnel scne e with harvey in that police car was aweosme, second favorite scene. rememer guys he’s like “is this thing made for this” then the joker brings out like a rocket-launcher. this movie is the best ive ever seen. this is just my grade but 9.8/10. if scarecrow wasnt in there for the 1o seconds that he was, it would’ve been a 10
Jul 19th, 2008
handle
Honestly my favorite part of the movie was the parking deck one with Scarecrow and the fake Batmen. That was so awesome and threw me for a loop for a sec when all the Batmen starting shooting guns. Loved it.
I think what bothered me most was
1. Needed more Two-Face. I didn’t fully believe in the Racheal, Harvey relationship so when he is supposed to snap and become to angry for her death and his scarring….I just didn’t fully believe that it made him that angry.
2. Why the hell Batman beat the crap out of so many SWAT guys. Just tell them the hostages had clown suits on. Why go beat the shit out of the cops?
Jul 19th, 2008
bjon86@gmail.com
OH MY GOD. I HEARD YOUR PODCAST. HE HAD A MECHANISM HE USED TO BEND THE TIP OF THE GUN!! I SAW IT ONCE!! You saw it TWICE!! HELLOOOO???!!! He CLEARLY had a mechanism. He bent the tip of the gun with it AND grabbed on to the van and cut and dug into the VAN with it!! DAMN! Pay ATTENTION.
Jul 19th, 2008
bjon86@gmail.com
He’s not dead. period.
Jul 19th, 2008
ZIMMERERER
(Type your comment here. Make sure you’ve read the commenting rules before doing so)
Jul 19th, 2008
ZIMMERERER
Alright. We are going to clarify something here. I listened to the podcasts and the big whining about two face ending up dead was uncalled for for two reasons: 1. He ain’t dead for sure, and 2. It represents the death of Harvey Dent, not Two Face. The face that they turn up at the end, while it did portray the side they wanted you to see, it also showed the death of Harvey Dent. They turned the distorted face to the ground, leaving it in mystery.
Jul 19th, 2008
James
I would normally agree with you guys that the ending was really lame but i really don’t agree this time! To me the kidnaping of the Gordan’s goes back to Dent’s hatred for the “scum” in Gordan’s department…particually Ramirez!!!!
If you remember that in the begining Dent talks about the curruption in Gordan’s department and Ramirez’s name comes up.
So when Jim Gordan backs up Ramirez and then Dent learns that Ramirez was the one that kidnaped Rachel and took her to the Joker (eventually leading to her death), of course he is going after Gordan because he trusted gordan’s people to take care of her and they couldn’t do that!
With that said…..i know why Gordan’s family got invloved but i REALLY REALLY REALLY wish they didn’t kill two-face!
Thanks for the podcast guys
Jul 19th, 2008
Robert
John, Batman does NOT bend the barrel of the gun with his own hand. If you blink, you miss it: There’s a metal extension that comes out of his arm; it can crush objects; you can actually hear it when he bends the gun. CAn’t believe you missed that! He also uses it to dig in the side of the van. Open your eyes and ears next time. Also, the ferry seen was actually fine. The prisoner tells the guard, “Give it to me. These men will kill you and take it anyway.” People on both boats were willing to do it, they just didn’t because nothing was happening; they didn’t know what t o do; it’s complex.
Jul 19th, 2008
Shovels Popcorn
I’m gonna have to say that Dent is dead, and I’m gonna tell you why I think it’s a good thing.
Dent is one man. He doesn’t have disposible henchmen like the Joker, he’s just a guy with a gun that kills half the people he puts at gunpoint. The way the Two-Face character is set up doesn’t lend him the power required to be a Batman villian. He’s a guy with a gun. The resulting showdown between Batman and Two-Face would be Batman kicking Face’s ass and sending him to Arkham.
I too, am disappointed that we won’t see more of Two-Face, but I did enjoy the way his character played out.
I’m also slightly disappointed that the Joker simply wore makeup, instead of sticking to the back story about getting dumped into a chemical bath, but I stopped caring when he made a pencil disappear. Kudos on sticking to his character concerning the conflicting stories he tells about his scars, and his wonderful line “You complete me.”
Villians I want to see next: Mr. Freeze and Poison Ivy. I want to see Nolan’s take on the villians that have a slightly unrealistic element to them. I really wouldn’t mind the return of the Joker, as long as the new actor doesn’t try to play the Joker like Ledger did.
Also, the cell phone thing was indeed wack. How the hell did Batman manage to see everything when there was obviously not a multitude of cell phones out in the open in the building?
Jul 19th, 2008
1138
I for one don’t think Two Face is dead. There was a funeral for Harvey not Two-Face and Gordon now as commissioner can now have Two-Face committed to ARKHAM as a cover-up. I could definitely see that happening.
Otherwise this was a great movie that blows “Wanted” out of the water. THE DARK KNIGHT is a real movie…this deserves a 10 not Wanted which was the most cliche movie this summer!
Jul 19th, 2008
Kyle
Hey John, I haven’t really taken a side on Dent/Two-face being dead or alive. I WANT him to be alive cus he is an awesome character. But the way the movie plays out it looks like he is dead. But… I just want to put this out there. Why is it not possible for you to believe he is alive? In the movie they were able to cover up Gordon’s death. What’s the difference? For Gordon’s EVERY cop in Gotham was there and saw him get shot.
I can see why the did kill him off if he in fact died but who really dies in comic books?
Jul 19th, 2008
John
Hey Kyle,
Yes, but they only had to keep Gordon being alive a secret for a day or 2.
Jul 20th, 2008
Jeb
Hey John, just saw the flick. I thought most of your likes/dislikes were valid, although personally, I thought the ending and Batman/Gordon’s arrangement was great. And yeah, I never really thought Harvey was dead. Nolan’s not an idiot and left just the right amount of information to leave it open and fuel the debate to Two-Face’s status.
And like Kyle suggests, use Gordon as an example. There was NOTHING in the movie that suggested he was still alive, and yet he still came back. To be closed off to the idea that Dent is still alive seems strange when all we get is snippets and a few brief moments suggesting his demise at the end of the film.
But wow, this movie exceeded my expectations and then some. Let’s hope the next installment is no Spider-Man 3…
Jul 20th, 2008
GFUNK
Just saw this movie today and wow…. fucking loved it! Ledger (RIP) was just amazing in bringing the Joker to life. Every scene with him was just unforgettable. Great intro for him too with the pencil trick, the entire theater was hoot’in and hollering after that one.
I do see where you guys are coming from with your negative points. I totally agree with the idea of finishing the movie with the Joker caught and Two-face MIA until Batman 3…. I also agree with James’s point as to why Harvy was going after Gordon. But this extension didn’t detract from my absolute love of this movie either. And liked how they explained that Batman can and needs to take the blame. Made sense to me.
The boat thing didn’t bother me at all, and I kind of liked the scene. I mean the prisoners wanted to do it (even the cops) to the point they gave it to a criminal (Zeus, lol) to do the deed. But Zeus, doing the unpopular surprise choice, threw it out the window. Then the guy on the other side couldn’t muster up the courage to kill 500+ people at his hand and bitched out. I mean its easy for us to armchair QB this situation. So in reality its not at all unbelievable to me that this outcome could happen… and therefore I accepted the scene without issue.
So I would give this movie 9 / 10. Just above Ironman so far for best of the year.
Oh and Harvey is dead… Any additional thoughts that he is or could be alive is pure 100% speculation.
Jul 20th, 2008
AjaxLou
Hmmm, need to see the movie again. I don’t remember a funeral scene for Dent. Isn’t the last shot of the movie Batman being chased by the cops at the end?
Jul 20th, 2008
Darren J Seeley
“The original trilogy concocted by Nolan and Goyer (this has been widely reported — surprised you haven’t been privy) involved the Joker as the second film’s villain and Dent as the third film’s villain, with the Joker’s trial as a plot-point as well.”
I’m sure that’s 100% correct. But, aren’t we forgetting some things? That’s what they said before the untimely death of Heath Ledger. They could recast the part (and get away with it, seeing how except for one brief glimpse, Ledger’s “non-makeup” face was never seen) ….
But things change. In an earlier draft, there very well may have been a cliffhanger or a scene where Dent lived. In the end, they said ‘we should kill him off’. And that’s what they did.
As to how other characters survived high falls?
1) Batman shot out a wire and his memory fabric cape cushioned his fall with Rachel Dawes;
2) He knew Maroni would not die from the fall because he “knew” where to push him off and with how much force. It was also three stories. Soft dirt cushioned the fall.
But Two-Face?
Prior to the fall- he’s deformed right down to the jaw, he is involved in a high speed crash (seat belt or not; it was a big crash) and Dent has a death wish. So, this dude’s taken a lot of abuse. Having him die at the end *despite* of what fate had for other characters before him, is reasonable.
Did we want more? Yes.
Was it enough? I’m going to throw the gauntlet down here and say yes. While there may be many who refuse to think Two Face is killed off, and it may propel the net for months from now until it sinks in, my question is this (again):
We accept the death of Ras Al Ghul despite “his body never being found” (his body could have been moved by any ninja/LOS member who wasn’t detected or stopped by Batman)
But here’s the dead Dent before us; and “he can’t be dead!”
Now I don’t understand that logic.
@Gfunk
I forgot that Tiny Lister’s WWE nickname was ‘Zeus’! It was a nice cameo, I thought.
I thought the ferry scene was a bit tacked on, but it worked for me. I also disagree with the int’l friends who thought they should blow up. The guy who “chickened out”- nobody was stopping him. But even though one may feel like the convicts on the other ferry may not be deserving of life, there are security and law enforcement persons on that ferry to also consider. Also, if one thinks murder is wrong and murderers should be punished and/or executed, would they commit murder?
Nobody stopped the prisoner from taking the trigger. But some criminals can be reformed. Some may be crooks but not killers.
So big man, (Maxie) Zeus (ha ha, cant resist) who few would mess with, and whom many convicts on the ferry respect. takes charge he isn’t stopped by security. His choice is to throw it away.
As it is, Joker cased ahead and had a detonator of his own.
*****
Batman’s voice
What’s wrong with it again? If he spoke more like Bruce Wayne, someone would be more on the uptake the next time around, and I don’t mean a low level Wayne employee.
BTW, that was a great line too, wasn’t it?
“So you think your boss goes out at night… beating up mobsters …and you want to blackmail a guy like that?”
Jul 20th, 2008
Kevin C
Its funny I realized that during the last hour of the movie I was WORRIED that Joker was going to die! He is such a charismatic character (as twisted as that may seem) and I think I cared more about what happened to him than anyone else. Wierd.
Jul 20th, 2008
aaron
me too, i loved the joker in this, favorite character. well i think part of the reason we cared about the joker is cuz it was heath. but the magic trick part with the pencil was laugh out loud funny, great job by everyone, RIP heath
Jul 20th, 2008
handle
I agree the fact that Nolan put in a lot of little things to make you wonder if Harvey lived or died. Which makes it really frustrating to be honest. In interviews he says he likes to completely finish movies. He thinks about that one film and not about sequels. Except Batman Begins negates that with him leaving us with the joker card and “escalation” by the mob. However, he has also stated that he does not want to make a 3rd movie. So perhaps he did close out this movie completely.
Things that make me want to believe he is alive
- Batman drops Sal Maroni off of a roof or similar height and Sal mockingly says “You’ll have to find a better place; I won’t die from this height” and Batman says “I’m counting on it” and then drops him which breaks up just breaking one of his legs.
- Batman says his one rule is to not kill. Why start with Harvey Dent? Yes, he had a gun to a kid’s head. Yes, Batman was in pain from getting shot in the stomach. But once you see the coin land, it is on the clean side which means the kid would of lived anyway.
- When Batman also falls off the roof….HE LIVES. However, Nolan made it clear that when Batman fell off the roof he hit some wooden blanks to slow down his fall. Did Harvey also hit some as he fell and perhaps just got knocked out when he hit the ground? After all, he doesn’t have a helmet on like Batman.
On top of that, there was the whole….who is really dead and who isn’t a couple of times in the film. Harvey could easily be one of those instances. Batman runs off and leaves Gordon with Dent. Gordon could of easily found Dent was alive and took him somewhere to cover up what has happened to the man that was suppose to save Gothem.
However, what leaves me to believe he is most likely dead is that it is simply not the greatest idea to bring him back for a 3rd movie. Two-Face is awesome but as someone said, what would be his purpose in the 3rd movie? He took revenge on everyone already. Also, much of the audience believes he is dead. If you bring him back in the 3rd, many people are not gonna understand what is going on. I saw it with 2 people and they started saying “I wish they didn’t kill Two-Face.” It wasn’t even a little doubt in their mind that he died.
Jul 20th, 2008
aaron
guys , dark knight has $155 M!!!!!!!!
Jul 20th, 2008
Kyle
Also Batman does not kill people.
Jul 20th, 2008
John
Hey Kyle
Yes he does kill people. Just not as judgement or punishment. He killed the fake ras al gouhl in batman begins. It wasn’t his intent, his intent was to escape, but ras and a lot of ninjas died. His intent wasn’t to kill Harvey, his intent was to save Gordon’s son, but that still ended with harvey dead.
Jul 20th, 2008
Luke
They should have edited it so that the joker died. Like made it look like he fel off the building. Agreed? I don’t want to feel like he’s gonna come bcak in sequels cause he’s not.
Jul 20th, 2008
Henry from Dallas
in justifying dent going after gordon, dent called out gordon for “having scum like wertz and ramirez in his unit” the two cops would later be responsible for kidnapping rachel and dent..so i think there was a good enough reason for harvey to go after gordons family
Jul 20th, 2008
FODE
Okay, I’m going to explain this so that everyone understands why Gordon and Bats did what they did.
Gotham City believes in Harvey. He is their “White Knight.” But, if the citizens were to find out that their hero had become as corrupt as the criminals he was fighting against, all of the good people of Gotham would lose hope in the system and in their selves.
So, Bats and Gordon decided to fake Dent’s death. They held a memorial service for him (with no coffin mind you) to celebrate Harvey as a hero. It all comes back to when Dent said, “you either die a hero, or you live long enough to see yourself become the villian.” The citizens of Gotham had to see Harvey “die” as a hero because it would ruin all the hard work he had done if they knew he had become the villain.
Batman willingly took the blame for all of the murders Dent commited so that Gotham wouldn’t suspect Harvey. I keep seeing people say, “how will they bring Harvey back from the dead?” I just saw TDK again not 2 hours ago and at no point did they ever say that Harvey “was dead,” “had died,” “was killed,” etc. The ending is left open to the viewers opinion. This reminds me a lot of the debate over X-3 and if the chess piece moved.
Think of it like this - Goyer said that they would not kill off the villains in this series. (Ra’s is presumed dead, it is in no way confirmed that he is.) Aaron Eckhart was signed for 2 movies. Eckhart said in an interview that Harvey doesn’t become a true villain until the next movie.
And from a realism point of view - In Begins, when the roof collapsed on (who we thought was) Ra’s, when the camera showed his face, his eyes were wide open. As it would be when someone passes. Don’t you think if Harvey was dead that the eye on his unscarred side would have been open? The closed eye, the coin landing “life” side up, and the facts of Eckhart being signed for another movie tells me that Harvey Dent is dead, but Harvey Two-Face is very much alive.
Jul 20th, 2008
FODE
Harvey’s eye was closed, Two-Face’s eye was open; I took this to mean that Harvey died and Two-Face lived.
Jul 20th, 2008
John
Hey Fode,
Sorry man, I think you’re dead wrong.
Yes, the plan was for Batman to take the blame for Harvey’s actions so that Dent wouldn’t be “fallen” for the sake of the city… but he’s still dead.
NOTHING in the movie suggests he’s still alive. NOTHING suggests the funeral was “faked”.
All the facts point to him being dead. Any other ideas are just pure speculation.
Jul 20th, 2008
FODE
sorry john…i think YOUR’E DEAD WRONG….
thats another reason i love the film….becuz nolan left so much up for discussion…if u think this isnt being debated everywhere, and that your 100% factually right..then we might as well stop discussion our opinions of film…everything you say is FACT i guess….all other critics and fans opinions are just LIEs I GUESS…HAHA…
saying dent/two face is dead when ekhart signed on to do 2 films is almost laughable.
i totally see why you feel so strongly about the subject, becuz thats the easy answer.
and could very well be the case if nolan and co. dont continue with the 3rd film as planned…but until Nolan himself declares the charchter dead, and out of these set of movies, how can you sit there and pretend that what i just said isnt out of the relm of possibility??haha
WHY SO SERIOUS??
Jul 20th, 2008
Kristina
I’m glad they didn’t pussy out and let Rachel survive.
Heath as The Joker was great, but I just don’t see him winning an Oscar for this. That’s not a knock on him, but an OSCAR? I don’t see it. The way he walks outside the hospital in that gown nearly made me choke on my soda from laughing so hard.
Hong Kong was worthless, but the bit with the plane was great.
Loved the growth in the relationship between Gordon/Batman. I really loved it. They got me GOOD with the Gordon fakeout. That scene at Gordon’s house with Batman perched there got me big time. The whole audience breathed a sigh of relief when he showed up again. I really really loved Gordon in this movie. I think Bale was kinda bland in this film, though. Not BAD at all, but he didn’t do anything spectacular, either. Eckhart and Ledger totally outshined him. That motherfucker can wear a suit like nobody’s business. Goddamn, he is attractive.
The Two-Face effect was fucking hideous, and I mean that in a good way. I like that they didn’t make him a typical villain. He’s a good man who does terrible things. I liked that there was a lot of grey there rather than black and white, but I do wish that they hadn’t let him die like that.
I LOVED the ending and I loved this movie. It’s the best film of the year so far. I loved HB2 and gave that a 9. I’ll go 9.5 for this. I really really dug the shit out of it. See it in IMAX, you owe it to yourself to do so.
Jul 20th, 2008
John
Hey Fode,
No, the FACTS are:
1) Dent Fell
2) Dent was Motionless
3) They had the funeral
4) They said he was gone.
There was NOTHING to point to him being alive. Nothing. Not one thing. Those are the facts.
Now, it’s totally fair to SPECULATE about the meaning of the facts and what MIGHT happen.
And by the way… Eckhart is not signed for 2 movies. That doesn’t mean he won’t be back, but he’s not signed for the a second film at this point.
Jul 20th, 2008
FODE
well….il just concede for the fact that i love the site, love the podcasts!
prolly one of if not the first thing ive disagreed with u on this site since ive become a regular reader…first time posting….
look forward to future discussions john!!