TMB’s The Dark Knight Podcast

Hey there folks. Well, in this special 35 minute podcast Doug and I discuss everything we liked and disliked about The Dark Knight. This special podcast is FILLED with spoilers and is intended only for people who have seen the movie. It’s all of us international friends chatting about the film we all already saw.

So dig in, sit back, relax and listen to Doug and I talk about the pros and cons of The Dark Knight!

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182 thoughts on “TMB’s The Dark Knight Podcast

  1. I thought that it was a excellent movie and that they should make another one, i was sad when rachel died and that she wasnt a stupid character!!! ]two-face deserved to die!!!!!!!!!!

  2. The reason he could bend the gun was because he had some sort of pressurizing machine within his gloves. So it adds 10 times more pressure.

  3. The Joker gave me nightmares. I can’t remember a single movie, much less a single character giving me nightmares before. I’m making a special trip to see this movie in IMAX.
    This probably sounds terrible, but I didn’t care too much about Heath Ledger’s death before I saw the Dark Knight. Now I appreciate what a talent was lost.

  4. OK, I under stand that John had issues with the bending thing. At first I thought what the fuck but then I saw that mechanism and I thought “OK, they took care of that with that mechanism”.

    Of course it can´t be done in real life but Batman does all sorts of unrealistic stuff but it is taken care of with some gadgets. Taking issue with this one thing is nit-pciking.

    I agree with the cutting the Hong Kong scene, Two face and Harvey Dent are both dead but the ending was perfect.

  5. When you watch it closely there is a device in his hand when he bends the barrel so it must be the bat-barrel-bender.

    I don’t know – it just seems that this is an odd thing to have trouble considering how many other far fetched things happen in the film.

  6. I will watch it again (I planned on it this weekend, or sooner) and tell you what I think. From what I remember it is not as you say, though.

  7. Hey Rexx,

    Once again, watch where it bends. If I put a gun barrel in a real vice and squeeze it as hard as I can, it still won’t bend on it’s own.

    Now, if you squeeze it so hard that it collapses the metal, then it could bend where the collapse happens.

    But once again… watch the movie. The metal doesn’t collapse, and even if it did, the bend doesn’t happen right at the point where he’s grabbing it. The barrel bends as if two opposing forces are going at it… which isn’t the case.

  8. It’s very easy to explain. The device applies force on the barrel to compromise the structure of the steel (molecular structure of metals weaken as they are bent) and his hand applies the rest of the work to actually move it.

    If the metal was clamped down on with sufficient pressure, it could easily weaken it enough to be bent. I’ve seen it done with industrial machinery, in fact a simple vise can achieve this.

  9. Hey Rexx,

    If the bending point of the gun was in the middle of his hand, I’d be totally there with you… but watch the movie again and take note of where the barrel bends. It bends as if he was using two hands and the bend point was between them… except there is nothing on the other end except the bad guy.

    Imagine you’re holding metal bar with one hand. Now make it bend beside your hand. You can’t without opposing force. It simply can’t be done.

  10. That’s simply not true. You’re assuming that there would have to be an opposite force applied at the other end for the gun to be bent, which isn’t really necessary. Depending on how the device operates, it could apply force on two sides of the barrel itself to bend it.

  11. Hey Rexx,

    All the mechanical force in the world still wouldn’t have bent the gun. For it to have bent where it did, the bad guy holding the gun would have to have been applying equal force. Even if there was mechanical force, the gun would have been ripped out of the bad guy’s hands or lifted him right off the ground long before the gun barrel bent.

  12. “That doesnt make any physical sense at all. Let’s say Batman had some machine in his hand that made his grip the strongest in the universe. That still won’t “bend” the gun. It just gives you a very strong grip on it.”

    You’re neglecting the fact that the device could also apply mechanical force.

  13. he isn’t ambiguous in the interview. The interviewer talks as if Dent died and Nolan just goes along with the discussion. he doesn’t correct the guy or say anything that could lead you to believe any other than in their heads dent died.

    Have you listened to it? If so do you seriously think if you do and you still think that dent is alive you are really clutching at straws.

    Dent died. That was what the entire film built too. To have him just injured and unconscious is ridiculous and cheapens the whole thing. His story arc was completed. There is nowhere else to take his character. He is dead.

    Believe he is not all you want but when batman 3 is announced Harvey dent and Two Face will not be involved. especially if the nolans are involved because I don’t think they would do anything as cheap as that. It would be a cheat. They haven’t faked his death and hidden at arkham. That idea is beneath the guys who wrote this script. Hes dead.

  14. But nolan does not correct him – he goes straight into explaining how they came to take the story in that direction.

    Plus later in the podcast they talk about it again and the interviewer says something about batman “breaking his main rule” by pushing dent off the building (in otherwords by killing him) and nolan again doesn’t correct him he just says its like what alfred said earlier if you want to do things this way accidents are going to happen and he doesn’t try to kill dent but that mistakes are going to happen.

    Nolan is given many chances to say “whose to say dent didn’t survive” and be ambiguous about it but in the interview it is made pretty clear dent is meant to be dead.

  15. You are write krigan. Using scarecrow like that was brilliant.

    oh and I only heard about the nolan quote from a friend but I have just found the podcast he referred to and I am going to listen to it this afternoon.

    Its the creative screenwriting podcast. Available on i tunes. I just found it now so will confirm whther its true that he said that.

  16. what if the joker wasnt really arrested. it could’ve been a henchmen in the SWAT uniform. but hey, i loved this movie so much. favorite of all time.

  17. George,
    any chance of a link to this article where The Nolans say harvey is dead? I tried to find it with no luck. Also did you read the actual article or did you just see a quote somewhere?

    BTW I have read a quote from one of the producers stating that they left Dent’s death ambiguous on purpose. I also read a quote from Nolan during the filming of begins that he felt it was a mistake for tim burton to kill a major villain like the Joker. Because of this I assume he left both Ras al Ghul and Harvey dents demise up in the air.

    I also wanted to add that i love the scarecrow scene. It is great to see cool cameos like that. this is exactly why you don’t kill off major villains. The Scarecrow was never captured in Begins so it makes sense he is still on the loose. I just wish they had briefly shown the effect of his fear gas on the batman copy cat. This idea that you can’t use a villain unless he is integral to the plot is silly, things like this make the world seem larger and more epic.

  18. 1 reason Two Face is dead:

    1. The Nolan brothers interview with creative screenwriter magazine. They out right say that he is dead. That say in their story they killed him off. So debate over really.

  19. I’m glad a movie used the ‘Airlift.’ The movie “Tears of the Sun” was going to use it in the last act but decided not to.

  20. The Joker was intentionally caught; he managed to escape from his cell to get his phone call. After the explosion where did all the police which were in the same room as him go? They vanished. This was my first disappointment.

    People are saying that the criminals in the boat are chained and therefore cannot get to the detonator. Zeus obviously wasn’t chained, explain that.

    I believe Harvey Dent did indeed die. If Nolan had intended to use Eckhart in the next film he would have left more to work with. There would be more in the end to prove Dent is still alive. Like John said, the FACTS point to Harvey’s death.

    There are reasonable arguments that prove it’s either The Joker’s movie, Harvey Dent’s Movie, or Batman’s movie.

    Without the last 30 minutes, the story clearly would be The Joker’s movie. If they would have cut this out the movie could have been so much better. Although, they’d have to change the name. They tried to get too much across; they should have stuck mainly with the Joker and Batman.

    Shaving off the last 30minutes would make it possibly to cut the Hong Kong scene. In the movie they did portray the Hong Kong scene was necessary as it showed how Batman is not the Hero type Gotham needs.

    Having said that, I really enjoyed the movie. They should have trimmed the movie but writing is rewriting, and rewriting, and rewriting, and rewriting. Nolan had to draw the line somewhere and start producing the movie. He had a tough job and pulled it off.

  21. okay.
    I meant to say “I watched the film a second time last night. Let me tell you it’s even better THAN the first time.”

    sorry there are many typos.

  22. I watched the film a second time last night. Let me tell you it’s even better the first time. I have no problems with the ferry scene as I did the first time. The first time it bothered me because I thought the inmates should have logically just grabbed the detonator and hit the button. However, the second time I realized they tried to but they were chained up and couldn’t. My only big problem with this film is the bending the gun barrel thing (as John said)…

    Having said that, watching it a second, leads me to believe in the survival of Harvey Two-Face. Here you go…

    9 Reasons Two-Face is NOT dead!
    —————————————————————–
    1. Two-Face is major player in the Batman universe. It would be silly to kill off such a potentially great story-arc for another film. I believe Chris Nolan is intelligent enough not to do this.

    2. Watching the end, you can see that Eckhart’s chest is moving. This may be because he messed up, but I’d like to believe it’s because Harvey is still alive.

    3. Gordon and Batman never claim Dent is dead, they look at him, they discuss a plan of how to remove the “Two-Face” character from existence, but they don’t acknowledge Dent’s death. Furthermore, Batman decided to take the blame for the deaths of the people. He does not mention anything about taking the blame for Harvey’s death, possibly because he isn’t actually dead.

    4. Batman and Two-Face fall from the same height. Batman not only survives, but he is able to run away from DOGS chasing him. This clearly indicates that the fall was not detrimental. It’s not as though Batman was limping and could barely walk.

    5. The cops NEVER see the body. In fact, it’s clearly pointed out in the film by Gordon, that the cops don’t even know Harvey is there. “They only not the situation”. It’s reasonable to assume, that while the cops are chasing Batman at the end, Gordon is hiding the body or not telling of its existence since the secret lies with Batman and him. The cops probably never even search the building because they are under the impression that the situation is to capture Batman – after all, it is the official policy – to “apprehend the vigilante known as Batman on site”.

    6. During the “funeral” or “memorial service” – it is a very short scene which only shows are large photo of Harvey Dent with Gordon reciting a speech. NO casket is seen. My theory is a closed casket, to which there could be any body or even no body inside. The point was to have the people of Gotham believe Dent died a hero, regardless of if he even died or not. So whether he actually is dead or alive, the public would still believe he is based on the secret of making Dent a hero.

    7. Dent was to remembered as the “White Knight or Gotham”. How? By finally bringing The Joker to justice. If the cops knew where Dent’s “lifeless” body was, how could they piece together the reason for his death location-wise since the Joker was apprehended in a different location. The only logical explanation are
    A) Batman killed Dent.
    B) Dent’s body is never found by the cops and only Gordon knows.

    I doubt scenario A because, for one, why would Dent even be there in the eyes of public? And Batman implies a scheme to hide the truth, saying “I killed those men” – referring to others not in the same location. Why wouldn’t he just say “I killed Dent and the other” or “I killed the men”? But once again, he does not acknowledge Dent’s death.

    8. “You either die a hero or live long enough to become a villain”. His own quote foreshadows himself. Harvey was no longer a hero, therefore, he lives long enough to become a villain? Possibly. We will only know once Nolan reveals the truth.

    9. Batman does not kill. Why would he throw Dent off of a building knowing he would die? Earlier, Batman throws Maroni off of a similar height and clearly states Sal wouldn’t die from the fall. Sure Batman is trying to the save the kid, but he did not have to jump into the direction of the fall and it was clear by the end that the kid was going to live regardless of if Batman had taken Two-Face out. Batman took down Dent – took him over edge to immobilize him, not kill him.

  23. By the way. The Two-Face ending did suck. But, it actually does make me want to see the next movie even more, to see where they take the story arc.

  24. If the movie was done MY (and some other fans’ way) it would go like this.

    The film begins with the Joker robbing a mob-owned bank. That night, multiple Batman impersonators interrupt a meeting between mobsters. The real Batman subdues everyone, but suffers injuries which lead him to design a more versatile suit. Batman and Lieutenant James Gordon contemplate including the new district attorney Harvey Dent in their plan to eradicate the mob, as he could be the public hero Batman cannot be. Harvey Dent is found to be dating Wayne/Batman’s love interest, Rachel Dawes. The mob bosses meet to discuss how to handle Batman, Gordon, and Harvey, while a Chinese mobster accountant, Lau, lets the gang leaders know he has taken their money to Hong Kong to prevent the police and the district attorney from seizing it in an imminent bank raid. The Joker arrives unexpectedly, offering to kill Batman for pay.
    Batman successfully abducts Lau and delivers him to the Gotham City Police Department, so the mobsters agree to hire the Joker. The Joker tells all of Gotham that if the Batman does not turn himself in to the police, more people will die each day. When the Joker begins killing public officials, including Commissioner Loeb and the judge presiding over the mob trials, Wayne decides to turn himself in. Before he can do so, Harvey announces that he is Batman, to draw the Joker out of hiding. The Joker attempts to kill Harvey, but Gordon and Batman intervene and arrest him, with Gordon being promoted to Commissioner.
    Batman interrogates the Joker, who reveals that Rachel and Harvey have been taken to opposite sides of the city, far enough apart that Batman does not have time to save both of them, and placed in warehouses rigged with explosives. Batman speeds off to save Rachel, while Gordon and the police head after Harvey. However, the Joker has switched the locations, sending Batman after Harvey and Gordon after Rachel. With the help of a bomb planted at the police station, the Joker escapes with Lau in tow. Batman arrives at Harvey’s location in time to save him, but Harvey sustains severe burns to the left side of his face. Gordon does not arrive in time to save Rachel, who perishes in the explosion. In the hospital, Harvey is driven to madness over the loss of Rachel. The Joker frees Harvey from the hospital and convinces him to exact revenge on the cops, mobsters, Gordon, and Batman.
    The Joker burns Lau along with the mob’s money. The Joker announces to the public that he will rule the streets and that anyone left in Gotham at nightfall will be subject to his rule. With the bridges and tunnels out of the city closed due to the Joker’s bomb threat, the authorities begin evacuating people by ferry. The Joker places explosives on two of the ferries—one carrying convicts, the other with civilians—telling the passengers on each that the only way to save themselves is to trigger the explosives on the other ferry; otherwise, at midnight he will destroy them both remotely.
    The passengers on each ferry do not trigger the explosives; Batman locates the Joker and prevents him from destroying the ferries himself. After being defeated by Batman, the Joker acknowledges that Batman really is incorruptible, but that Harvey was not. The Joker is then taken away to Arkham Asylum.

    No Hong Kong scene
    No Ending to Two Face (leave it at the Joker scene)
    No Scarecrow
    Joker/ Arkham Asylum Scene

    By the way. About the Two-Face thing, I was highly displeased with the ending that has caused so much debate.

    I don’t think this movie would fake a death. Therefore I think he is dead.

    Then again, I don’t think they can just fuck up Two-Face like they did Scarecrow.

    I have conflicting thoughts about the story arc.

    Only time will tell. In a way, this is like a cliffhanger ending.

  25. I did like the film, but my rating would be lower than both of yours. A large part of this was the backseat that Batman took in this film. I can’t agree when you say that Christian Bale did a good job as Batman in The Dark Knight because he was barely in the movie. I’ve never seen a superhero play such a small role in his own movie. I feel like Ledger should be up for Best Actor, because he led this film the whole way through. This was clearly the Joker’s movie.

    Yes, the ending was crap and should have been cut; and I won’t even get into Two-Face. You guys make a lot of good points, but I really don’t think Christian Bale deserves any props for his role here, perhaps by no fault of his own. Nolan should have written him into the script more, especially around the psychological war that the Joker was waging on Batman. I wanted to see more deeply the turmoil that Batman was going through about identifying with and create the evil in Gotham. Instead of the few short, dry scenes with Alfred spent contemplating giving up as Batman I would have rather seen this showed in interplay between Batman and the Joker.

    I don’t think it’s too much to ask to see a little bit more Batman in a Batman movie, is it?

  26. I saw the film last night and it is incredible. Sure there are flaws but seriously for two guys who loved it you spent a LOT of time talking about the negatives. Seriously how many times were you shocked, blown away or on the edge of your seat? The Pros far outway the cons so why didn’t you talk about the good stuff more?

  27. oh and this is dents film. not the jokers. the joker is very important obviously but this is the story of the rise and fall of harvey dent. end of story. he is bruce waynes one hope for a normal life. its a tragedy and it is pulled of beautifully.

    such a good film.

  28. and i took it that they blamed the murders on batman to try and thwart future copycat guys, to try make him appear to be “enemy” of the police so the public don’t worship him and think that they can do what he does.

    but I still don’t like pinning them on him.

  29. If dent isn’t dead the film is cheapened and pretty much ruined. Of course he is dead. they will not be bringing him back.

    but i do disagree with your take on the ending john. The reason they don’t want the citizens of gotham to see or know what happen to dent truly is because what kind of a hopeful message does that send them??

    it hardly sends out a good message that unless you are batman if you go up against the bad guys as forcefully as dent did you wind up a fucking deformed madman.

    “dear citizens of gotham Here is harvey dent. The man you all thought could save you. the great white hope….the normal guy who went up against the villains well he did his best but ultimately he wound up with a murdered lover, insane, a murderer himself, a totally mangle deformed face, he then kidnapped jim gordons family and looked as if he was going to murder a ten year old kid and then he died from falling from a building. but keep your fingers crossed – don’t give up hope”

    it makes much more sense to let them think he died a heroes death helping with putting the joker away. I don’t like the idea of pinning it on batman with the public but i totally see why they don;t want to let gotham know how dent wound up. I liked that.

    and eric roberts is great too!! :P

    also I disagree with you about the loved the beginning with scarecrow. that is the type of thing that happens in comics and they did it beautifully – you would begin a new story with the tail end of Batman stopping one of the classic villains. I have comics where Batman stops the joker in the first few panels and then goes on to confront the main villain of the new story. one of the best parts of the film for me. A true rogues gallery of villains who could pop up at any minute. Just one of the many crazy criminals running around gotham. that is totally a comic book type thing to have happen and was fucking perfect. as was having the batman copy cat guys.

  30. john
    You are forgetting the first rule about comics and movies no one ever really dies. If they decide to use a character again they will bring him back and with two face this is easy. In fact I think it was set up this way on purpose. How do we know Gordon and batman did’nt load Harvey in Gordons car before the cops came? Or maybe Gordon did it himself as Batman lured the cops away. Then they take Harvey to Arkham and check him in under an alias. It is not kidnapping to them they are hoping to get him help and put him back to work. I can’t believe you are taking such a hard stance on this and acting as though there is no possible way that he survived. One of the biggest hints is that they did’nt have a funeral it was a memorial, no coffin at all. You have memorials when there is no body. Gordon probably reported him missing presumed dead after the Hospital blew up. This also would make it easy to bring back Harvey later if he can be helped.

    i do agree that the scene with two face and Gordon felt forced and like he was going to far to quick but the films excuse for this is that earlier in the film Harvey warned Gordon about Ramirez and the other traitor but Gordon kept them on anyway. So this is the reasoning for Gordons blame.

    Bending the gun required a device that was not just a grip but ran all the way up his arm and perhaps all the way back to the suit. He also used this device to tear the side of the van off which I am shocked you did’nt mention also. Yes it was a little lame but explained none the less.

    Hands done for me the worst scene and biggest leap of logic was batman saving rachael by leaping out the window and falling 20 stories with her. Nothing was done to slow the descent and they would both die for sure. His suit supplies a little protection but come on hes not iron man.

  31. Sometimes trailers serve a great purpose. I was convinced by the trailer that Rachel would die when Joker dropped her from the building, but since she was caught, I assumed she was safe for the rest of the movie. Oops.

    Why didn’t Bruce put her ass on his private jet and get her the hell outta Gotham after the first time she was targeted?

  32. Well i loved this one. I have only one real big complaint, the trailers. The trailer spoiled to much. In the very first trailer they show Gordon after the Joker is apprehended, which comes after he supposedly died. So i have decided to never watch a trailer again. What’s the point really, i am alreay sold on the movie anyways

  33. Love the podcast, but got to say, at first I was like “what” with the gun bend. But then you see the vice grip machine release and open when he pulls his hand away, and it makes a sound. He then uses the same thing to smash his hand into and hang onto the truck.

    If the current tech exists or not… silly point, because he has lots of crazy gizmos in this movie that are not real. Or maybe it IS real and we just dont make enough money to know it exists.

  34. Sorry BJon86

    That doesnt make any physical sense at all. Let’s say Batman had some machine in his hand that made his grip the strongest in the universe. That still won’t “bend” the gun. It just gives you a very strong grip on it.

    For the gun to bend beside the hand (outside of the alleged mechanical grip by the way) would mean he’s have to use all the normal muscles to do it. The grip just makes sure it doesn’t slip out of his had.

    Go grab a straw with one hand. Now make it bend at a place BESIDE your hand. You can’t. No matter how strong your grip is.

  35. I’m sorry John. But there are times when you just WAAAY too critical just for the sake of being critical or just to prove yourself “right.” The device in his hand CLEARLY was what bent the gun. End of fuckin story. I’m tired of people bring that shit up when that is an actual working technology.

    done and done

  36. WRONG!!! his hand device is for both kicking some ass with a powerful punch and also, to cut / bend / do whatever to metal…

  37. Great podcasts guys! A lot of great points throughout. Just one note, you mention Batman bending the barrell of a gun. If you see it again, you’ll notice he had a device in his hand that did that.

  38. I know this seems like an easy way out but, why didn’t they just blame the Dent murders on the Joker?

    Just a thought.

  39. And I loved the soundtrack. LOVED it, especially during the end. There’s this brief moment where the violins rise right as Batman is running away from Gordon and it put a damn lump in my throat.

  40. Did anyone catch a subtle reference to what could be the next villain? When Bruce asks if the new suit will protect him from dogs, Lucius jokingly says, “It’ll protect you from cats”. Is that a Catwoman announcement or a throwaway line?

  41. I have to agree with you about the overall problems with the Dent/Two-Face storyline. However, this was a wildly complex and layered script. Never mind the performances (which were stellar and almost HAD to be stellar to carry this off – and Ledger’s which was universal – puns intended). Writing this story must have been a bitch, so I’m willing to give them a little slack for maybe being too close to the material or probably proofing it 1,000 times or whatever and getting muddled at the end. Hell, I was muddled at the end just watching it all! (in a very satisfied way). Not saying it was right, they could have taken your suggestion and ended sometime soon after the Joker blows up the hospital (and I have to say I’d leave at least that scene in because the Joker in a nurses’ uniform is just so wrongly funny as he fiddles with the detonator). I agree they should have left Dent for the next film. I didn’t think Eckhart had enough time to fully make the transition stick as Two-Face and although he’s not my fave Batvillain I think Eckhart did a wonderful job in the beginning and was a bit rushed at the end. You’re right too that it would make for a great next movie arc if there is a next movie (and Nolan better direct it because if they pull some studio bullshit and ask Schumaker again I’m NOT GOING!)

    I also liked the scene with the boats because it ultimately was the only light in a very dark night. I think one thing the comics always portrayed was that here’s this billionaire willing to take on the evils of the world because he cares for Gotham, really and truly cares about the city. And what is a city if not the people? We already know Batman doesn’t care about the things (he doesn’t have to he owns them all anyway). It’s the people, it’s the city as a whole. What better way to restore Batman’s badly battered psyche than to have a weird act of random kindness performed by that mob? And I think having the biggest, meanest felon do it first was the right note. BECAUSE it’s unexpected, because we all have prejudgements. I speak from experience here, I was actually in jail with the murderers and rapists etc. you mention for a major drug crime (I had a really good lawyer and got out and have “gone straight” since), and it’s what I would have done. Not out of pity for the other boat btw but because I know first hand what it does to your soul to hurt another human being. It isn’t easy to live with and most people in jail are really more desperate than Joker evil (but there are some of those too). The other reason is that most of us who have been to jail don’t like to be controlled (which is often why we’re there in the first place) and the Joker was taking control. Believe me, when you do meet a Joker, and I hope you never do, you won’t feel good about the control he exerts in your life (and unless you’re a Joker too he will). The right move is to not play the game. And they did that on the boat and it’s a beacon for WHY Batman endures. Therein lies the “comic book” of this not so comic book movie.

    One last point though. This movie was so intelligent, so well paced, so mind-bogglingly well crafted and so insidious that I wouldn’t put it past Mr. Nolan, et al to have something else to pull out of their collective cape. He blew me away so much this time that I won’t make the mistake of underestimating his talent ever again.

  42. I just watched the movie again a few minutes ago, and the ferry scene grows one me even more. If you look at some of the people, they are reluctant to use the detonator because they are uncertain; there are many questions in their head: IS the Joker lying? This could be the detonator to our own boat. MAybe he’s not lying. If not, why haven’t the other people on the boat blown us up. Also, most of the people are too cowardly to take another life. The prisoners on the other hand were hancuffed, and most of ’em were screaming at the prison guard to hit the detonator. Some of the prisoners weren’t too eager also, because they know the Joker could be fooling with them. The prisoner who through it out the window seemed to wanted to take the power away from The Joker. It’s complicated stuff. Especially when you’re dealing with a crazy psycho/liar.

  43. One thing that could’ve saved the boat sequence would be for the criminal’s trigger to not work, so it would still be Joker pushing the innocent civilians to break.

    As to two face alive/dead, I think he was meant to be dead, but they could always bring him back and explain it as the coverup. (most likely if they intended to have the Joker at all in the next one and change plans for Heath’s death)

  44. I always luv how rumors start swirling out of control. Where has Aaron Eckhart ever started he was gonna be in a 3rd movie? Nolan himself has said in an interview (one I watched…not something someone else has said they saw) that he doesn’t even care to make a 3rd film and only focused on this 2nd film and purposely wrapped EVERYTHING up. However, there is a new interview I read where they stated Nolan whispered something to Bale about a 3rd movie because they work so well together. Bale responds with a joke that if they are a great duo then Nolan has to be Robin. Something like that….

    Overall I’d like to see some new villains that would easily fit into the Nolan universe of Batman. We have seen the biggest villains. Why not some of the more interesting unknowns? Clayface was always my favorite. Bane could easily work as well but I doubt he could hold a film alone. But both of these characters would definitely offer some great fight scenes.

  45. Sean, actually two people complained; me and also the person John replied two. But who cares how many people it is. Even if it’s just one person, that’s one person who’s enjoyment of that scene has been ruined. I have my differences with Gio sometimes but I’ve listened to his podcast for sometime and I’m sure he’d be the last person who would want to ruin a great moment of cinema for anyone, even just one person.

    How many people agreeing with you does it take to give you the right to spoil a great film for someone?

    There’s so few truly powerful moment of film that everyone of them is precious and deserves to be protected.

    As for your question about the Joker, I think that’s a fair question. Obviously pictures of the Joker have been a major part of the marketing for this film. But that’s not necessarily the final word for me. More and more I find the marketing campaigns of these movies to be an invasive attack on the average film goer. And frankly it’s mostly the public’s fault. People are reluctant to set foot in a theater unless every single plot point is telegraphed to them before hand. That’s tragic, and it ends up imposing on film goers who would like to be surprised.
    I would say the major differences between the Joker pictures and the Two Face pictures are
    a) Two Face was not part of the marketing. The film makers tried to keep him a secret. Granted, it was an extremely poorly kept secret. Still, I was able to go into the theater without having seen what Two Face would look like.

    b) The way the characters reveals were handled in the film. Look at that scene between Dent and Gordon. It’s a tiny little masterpiece that is very carefully planned out. A quiet little emotionally devestating moment of horror. To ruin the pay off for that scene isn’t just inconsiderate of the audience, it’s inconsiderate of the film makers.

    I agree the line is blurry. But no, I would not consider pictures of the Joker to be spoilers.

  46. I don’t think I said it was a plot point John. There’s more to a movie than just plot points.
    My point is that I enjoyed having the two face design revealed to me in the film. The way that scene is shot (very carefully planned out) is awesome and powerful partly because I didn’t know what was coming. I was able to avoid spoilers and was rewarded for doing so.

    As for calling you “belligerent” maybe that was harsh, I apologize. But whoever it was you were replying too brought up a legitimate concern and I thought you were pretty quick to dismiss him.

    You were allowed to discover this film for yourself and you should allow other people that same joy. By posting the two face design on the front page you’re robbing people of a key moment in the film.

    To some people that might not be a big deal but to me, had I not seen the film, it would’ve been. You’re a big time critic now, you get invited to the early screenings. That’s cool, but you should be considerate of others who aren’t so lucky. Do you remember how hard it is to avoid spoilers for these big films that everyone is talking about? It can be like trying to navigate a mine field.

    Anyways, I always appreciate it when you or Doug take the time to respond to my comments.

  47. Sorry, one more thing. I’m just curious if Rusty James considers the images of The Joker as a spoiler too? If not, why?

  48. “your reaction to the legitimate concern of your readership”

    Who says it was legitimate? You? I thought it was fine. Do I count as a part of the “readership”, or is “the readership” only the people who see things your way? 120+ comments and I only remember seeing 1 person concerned. Does that equal “the readership”?

    Anyway, great podcast guys. I’ve got to side with Doug on this one, I thought they totally should have taken the whole Hong Kong sequence out of the movie. It didn’t need to be there.

  49. Hey Rusty James,

    Dude, a character design is not a plot point (you may disagree, and that’s totally cool).

    And just because I didn’t kneel and agree with the concern doesn’t make me belligerent. Getting into name calling when someone disagrees with you could be considered that though.

  50. @ “That picture has been all over the internet for months.”

    I love that your rational for ruining one of the few surprises left in the movie is that the surprise has already been ruined. The picture has been on the internet for months and many of us have been going out of our way to avoid it for months.

    I love that the climate has turned to out right hostility towards anyone who would like to go to a movie theater and be surprised. By the time a movie is actually released to the public every character design has been leaked, every plot point has been hashed out, every scene revealed in the countless trailers and the first seven of the movie has been released as a “promotion”. The film itself becomes a by product of the marketing blitzkrieg and an accessory to the box office discussion.

    Your reaction to the legitimate concern of your readership is belligerent.

  51. well….il just concede for the fact that i love the site, love the podcasts!
    prolly one of if not the first thing ive disagreed with u on this site since ive become a regular reader…first time posting….

    look forward to future discussions john!!

  52. Hey Fode,

    No, the FACTS are:

    1) Dent Fell
    2) Dent was Motionless
    3) They had the funeral
    4) They said he was gone.

    There was NOTHING to point to him being alive. Nothing. Not one thing. Those are the facts.

    Now, it’s totally fair to SPECULATE about the meaning of the facts and what MIGHT happen.

    And by the way… Eckhart is not signed for 2 movies. That doesn’t mean he won’t be back, but he’s not signed for the a second film at this point.

  53. I’m glad they didn’t pussy out and let Rachel survive.

    Heath as The Joker was great, but I just don’t see him winning an Oscar for this. That’s not a knock on him, but an OSCAR? I don’t see it. The way he walks outside the hospital in that gown nearly made me choke on my soda from laughing so hard.

    Hong Kong was worthless, but the bit with the plane was great.

    Loved the growth in the relationship between Gordon/Batman. I really loved it. They got me GOOD with the Gordon fakeout. That scene at Gordon’s house with Batman perched there got me big time. The whole audience breathed a sigh of relief when he showed up again. I really really loved Gordon in this movie. I think Bale was kinda bland in this film, though. Not BAD at all, but he didn’t do anything spectacular, either. Eckhart and Ledger totally outshined him. That motherfucker can wear a suit like nobody’s business. Goddamn, he is attractive.

    The Two-Face effect was fucking hideous, and I mean that in a good way. I like that they didn’t make him a typical villain. He’s a good man who does terrible things. I liked that there was a lot of grey there rather than black and white, but I do wish that they hadn’t let him die like that.

    I LOVED the ending and I loved this movie. It’s the best film of the year so far. I loved HB2 and gave that a 9. I’ll go 9.5 for this. I really really dug the shit out of it. See it in IMAX, you owe it to yourself to do so.

  54. sorry john…i think YOUR’E DEAD WRONG….

    thats another reason i love the film….becuz nolan left so much up for discussion…if u think this isnt being debated everywhere, and that your 100% factually right..then we might as well stop discussion our opinions of film…everything you say is FACT i guess….all other critics and fans opinions are just LIEs I GUESS…HAHA…

    saying dent/two face is dead when ekhart signed on to do 2 films is almost laughable.

    i totally see why you feel so strongly about the subject, becuz thats the easy answer.

    and could very well be the case if nolan and co. dont continue with the 3rd film as planned…but until Nolan himself declares the charchter dead, and out of these set of movies, how can you sit there and pretend that what i just said isnt out of the relm of possibility??haha

    WHY SO SERIOUS??

  55. Hey Fode,

    Sorry man, I think you’re dead wrong.

    Yes, the plan was for Batman to take the blame for Harvey’s actions so that Dent wouldn’t be “fallen” for the sake of the city… but he’s still dead.

    NOTHING in the movie suggests he’s still alive. NOTHING suggests the funeral was “faked”.

    All the facts point to him being dead. Any other ideas are just pure speculation.

  56. Okay, I’m going to explain this so that everyone understands why Gordon and Bats did what they did.

    Gotham City believes in Harvey. He is their “White Knight.” But, if the citizens were to find out that their hero had become as corrupt as the criminals he was fighting against, all of the good people of Gotham would lose hope in the system and in their selves.

    So, Bats and Gordon decided to fake Dent’s death. They held a memorial service for him (with no coffin mind you) to celebrate Harvey as a hero. It all comes back to when Dent said, “you either die a hero, or you live long enough to see yourself become the villian.” The citizens of Gotham had to see Harvey “die” as a hero because it would ruin all the hard work he had done if they knew he had become the villain.

    Batman willingly took the blame for all of the murders Dent commited so that Gotham wouldn’t suspect Harvey. I keep seeing people say, “how will they bring Harvey back from the dead?” I just saw TDK again not 2 hours ago and at no point did they ever say that Harvey “was dead,” “had died,” “was killed,” etc. The ending is left open to the viewers opinion. This reminds me a lot of the debate over X-3 and if the chess piece moved.

    Think of it like this – Goyer said that they would not kill off the villains in this series. (Ra’s is presumed dead, it is in no way confirmed that he is.) Aaron Eckhart was signed for 2 movies. Eckhart said in an interview that Harvey doesn’t become a true villain until the next movie.

    And from a realism point of view – In Begins, when the roof collapsed on (who we thought was) Ra’s, when the camera showed his face, his eyes were wide open. As it would be when someone passes. Don’t you think if Harvey was dead that the eye on his unscarred side would have been open? The closed eye, the coin landing “life” side up, and the facts of Eckhart being signed for another movie tells me that Harvey Dent is dead, but Harvey Two-Face is very much alive.

  57. in justifying dent going after gordon, dent called out gordon for “having scum like wertz and ramirez in his unit” the two cops would later be responsible for kidnapping rachel and dent..so i think there was a good enough reason for harvey to go after gordons family

  58. They should have edited it so that the joker died. Like made it look like he fel off the building. Agreed? I don’t want to feel like he’s gonna come bcak in sequels cause he’s not.

  59. Hey Kyle

    Yes he does kill people. Just not as judgement or punishment. He killed the fake ras al gouhl in batman begins. It wasn’t his intent, his intent was to escape, but ras and a lot of ninjas died. His intent wasn’t to kill Harvey, his intent was to save Gordon’s son, but that still ended with harvey dead.

  60. I agree the fact that Nolan put in a lot of little things to make you wonder if Harvey lived or died. Which makes it really frustrating to be honest. In interviews he says he likes to completely finish movies. He thinks about that one film and not about sequels. Except Batman Begins negates that with him leaving us with the joker card and “escalation” by the mob. However, he has also stated that he does not want to make a 3rd movie. So perhaps he did close out this movie completely.

    Things that make me want to believe he is alive

    – Batman drops Sal Maroni off of a roof or similar height and Sal mockingly says “You’ll have to find a better place; I won’t die from this height” and Batman says “I’m counting on it” and then drops him which breaks up just breaking one of his legs.

    – Batman says his one rule is to not kill. Why start with Harvey Dent? Yes, he had a gun to a kid’s head. Yes, Batman was in pain from getting shot in the stomach. But once you see the coin land, it is on the clean side which means the kid would of lived anyway.

    – When Batman also falls off the roof….HE LIVES. However, Nolan made it clear that when Batman fell off the roof he hit some wooden blanks to slow down his fall. Did Harvey also hit some as he fell and perhaps just got knocked out when he hit the ground? After all, he doesn’t have a helmet on like Batman.

    On top of that, there was the whole….who is really dead and who isn’t a couple of times in the film. Harvey could easily be one of those instances. Batman runs off and leaves Gordon with Dent. Gordon could of easily found Dent was alive and took him somewhere to cover up what has happened to the man that was suppose to save Gothem.

    However, what leaves me to believe he is most likely dead is that it is simply not the greatest idea to bring him back for a 3rd movie. Two-Face is awesome but as someone said, what would be his purpose in the 3rd movie? He took revenge on everyone already. Also, much of the audience believes he is dead. If you bring him back in the 3rd, many people are not gonna understand what is going on. I saw it with 2 people and they started saying “I wish they didn’t kill Two-Face.” It wasn’t even a little doubt in their mind that he died.

  61. me too, i loved the joker in this, favorite character. well i think part of the reason we cared about the joker is cuz it was heath. but the magic trick part with the pencil was laugh out loud funny, great job by everyone, RIP heath

  62. Its funny I realized that during the last hour of the movie I was WORRIED that Joker was going to die! He is such a charismatic character (as twisted as that may seem) and I think I cared more about what happened to him than anyone else. Wierd.

  63. “The original trilogy concocted by Nolan and Goyer (this has been widely reported — surprised you haven’t been privy) involved the Joker as the second film’s villain and Dent as the third film’s villain, with the Joker’s trial as a plot-point as well.”

    I’m sure that’s 100% correct. But, aren’t we forgetting some things? That’s what they said before the untimely death of Heath Ledger. They could recast the part (and get away with it, seeing how except for one brief glimpse, Ledger’s “non-makeup” face was never seen) ….

    But things change. In an earlier draft, there very well may have been a cliffhanger or a scene where Dent lived. In the end, they said ‘we should kill him off’. And that’s what they did.

    As to how other characters survived high falls?

    1) Batman shot out a wire and his memory fabric cape cushioned his fall with Rachel Dawes;

    2) He knew Maroni would not die from the fall because he “knew” where to push him off and with how much force. It was also three stories. Soft dirt cushioned the fall.

    But Two-Face?

    Prior to the fall- he’s deformed right down to the jaw, he is involved in a high speed crash (seat belt or not; it was a big crash) and Dent has a death wish. So, this dude’s taken a lot of abuse. Having him die at the end *despite* of what fate had for other characters before him, is reasonable.

    Did we want more? Yes.
    Was it enough? I’m going to throw the gauntlet down here and say yes. While there may be many who refuse to think Two Face is killed off, and it may propel the net for months from now until it sinks in, my question is this (again):

    We accept the death of Ras Al Ghul despite “his body never being found” (his body could have been moved by any ninja/LOS member who wasn’t detected or stopped by Batman)
    But here’s the dead Dent before us; and “he can’t be dead!”

    Now I don’t understand that logic.

    @Gfunk

    I forgot that Tiny Lister’s WWE nickname was ‘Zeus’! It was a nice cameo, I thought.

    I thought the ferry scene was a bit tacked on, but it worked for me. I also disagree with the int’l friends who thought they should blow up. The guy who “chickened out”- nobody was stopping him. But even though one may feel like the convicts on the other ferry may not be deserving of life, there are security and law enforcement persons on that ferry to also consider. Also, if one thinks murder is wrong and murderers should be punished and/or executed, would they commit murder?

    Nobody stopped the prisoner from taking the trigger. But some criminals can be reformed. Some may be crooks but not killers.
    So big man, (Maxie) Zeus (ha ha, cant resist) who few would mess with, and whom many convicts on the ferry respect. takes charge he isn’t stopped by security. His choice is to throw it away.

    As it is, Joker cased ahead and had a detonator of his own.

    *****

    Batman’s voice

    What’s wrong with it again? If he spoke more like Bruce Wayne, someone would be more on the uptake the next time around, and I don’t mean a low level Wayne employee.

    BTW, that was a great line too, wasn’t it?

    “So you think your boss goes out at night… beating up mobsters …and you want to blackmail a guy like that?”

  64. Hmmm, need to see the movie again. I don’t remember a funeral scene for Dent. Isn’t the last shot of the movie Batman being chased by the cops at the end?

  65. Just saw this movie today and wow…. fucking loved it! Ledger (RIP) was just amazing in bringing the Joker to life. Every scene with him was just unforgettable. Great intro for him too with the pencil trick, the entire theater was hoot’in and hollering after that one.

    I do see where you guys are coming from with your negative points. I totally agree with the idea of finishing the movie with the Joker caught and Two-face MIA until Batman 3…. I also agree with James’s point as to why Harvy was going after Gordon. But this extension didn’t detract from my absolute love of this movie either. And liked how they explained that Batman can and needs to take the blame. Made sense to me.

    The boat thing didn’t bother me at all, and I kind of liked the scene. I mean the prisoners wanted to do it (even the cops) to the point they gave it to a criminal (Zeus, lol) to do the deed. But Zeus, doing the unpopular surprise choice, threw it out the window. Then the guy on the other side couldn’t muster up the courage to kill 500+ people at his hand and bitched out. I mean its easy for us to armchair QB this situation. So in reality its not at all unbelievable to me that this outcome could happen… and therefore I accepted the scene without issue.

    So I would give this movie 9 / 10. Just above Ironman so far for best of the year.

    Oh and Harvey is dead… Any additional thoughts that he is or could be alive is pure 100% speculation.

  66. Hey John, just saw the flick. I thought most of your likes/dislikes were valid, although personally, I thought the ending and Batman/Gordon’s arrangement was great. And yeah, I never really thought Harvey was dead. Nolan’s not an idiot and left just the right amount of information to leave it open and fuel the debate to Two-Face’s status.

    And like Kyle suggests, use Gordon as an example. There was NOTHING in the movie that suggested he was still alive, and yet he still came back. To be closed off to the idea that Dent is still alive seems strange when all we get is snippets and a few brief moments suggesting his demise at the end of the film.

    But wow, this movie exceeded my expectations and then some. Let’s hope the next installment is no Spider-Man 3…

  67. Hey John, I haven’t really taken a side on Dent/Two-face being dead or alive. I WANT him to be alive cus he is an awesome character. But the way the movie plays out it looks like he is dead. But… I just want to put this out there. Why is it not possible for you to believe he is alive? In the movie they were able to cover up Gordon’s death. What’s the difference? For Gordon’s EVERY cop in Gotham was there and saw him get shot.

    I can see why the did kill him off if he in fact died but who really dies in comic books?

  68. I for one don’t think Two Face is dead. There was a funeral for Harvey not Two-Face and Gordon now as commissioner can now have Two-Face committed to ARKHAM as a cover-up. I could definitely see that happening.

    Otherwise this was a great movie that blows “Wanted” out of the water. THE DARK KNIGHT is a real movie…this deserves a 10 not Wanted which was the most cliche movie this summer!

  69. I’m gonna have to say that Dent is dead, and I’m gonna tell you why I think it’s a good thing.

    Dent is one man. He doesn’t have disposible henchmen like the Joker, he’s just a guy with a gun that kills half the people he puts at gunpoint. The way the Two-Face character is set up doesn’t lend him the power required to be a Batman villian. He’s a guy with a gun. The resulting showdown between Batman and Two-Face would be Batman kicking Face’s ass and sending him to Arkham.

    I too, am disappointed that we won’t see more of Two-Face, but I did enjoy the way his character played out.

    I’m also slightly disappointed that the Joker simply wore makeup, instead of sticking to the back story about getting dumped into a chemical bath, but I stopped caring when he made a pencil disappear. Kudos on sticking to his character concerning the conflicting stories he tells about his scars, and his wonderful line “You complete me.”

    Villians I want to see next: Mr. Freeze and Poison Ivy. I want to see Nolan’s take on the villians that have a slightly unrealistic element to them. I really wouldn’t mind the return of the Joker, as long as the new actor doesn’t try to play the Joker like Ledger did.

    Also, the cell phone thing was indeed wack. How the hell did Batman manage to see everything when there was obviously not a multitude of cell phones out in the open in the building?

  70. John, Batman does NOT bend the barrel of the gun with his own hand. If you blink, you miss it: There’s a metal extension that comes out of his arm; it can crush objects; you can actually hear it when he bends the gun. CAn’t believe you missed that! He also uses it to dig in the side of the van. Open your eyes and ears next time. Also, the ferry seen was actually fine. The prisoner tells the guard, “Give it to me. These men will kill you and take it anyway.” People on both boats were willing to do it, they just didn’t because nothing was happening; they didn’t know what t o do; it’s complex.

  71. I would normally agree with you guys that the ending was really lame but i really don’t agree this time! To me the kidnaping of the Gordan’s goes back to Dent’s hatred for the “scum” in Gordan’s department…particually Ramirez!!!!

    If you remember that in the begining Dent talks about the curruption in Gordan’s department and Ramirez’s name comes up.

    So when Jim Gordan backs up Ramirez and then Dent learns that Ramirez was the one that kidnaped Rachel and took her to the Joker (eventually leading to her death), of course he is going after Gordan because he trusted gordan’s people to take care of her and they couldn’t do that!

    With that said…..i know why Gordan’s family got invloved but i REALLY REALLY REALLY wish they didn’t kill two-face!

    Thanks for the podcast guys

  72. Alright. We are going to clarify something here. I listened to the podcasts and the big whining about two face ending up dead was uncalled for for two reasons: 1. He ain’t dead for sure, and 2. It represents the death of Harvey Dent, not Two Face. The face that they turn up at the end, while it did portray the side they wanted you to see, it also showed the death of Harvey Dent. They turned the distorted face to the ground, leaving it in mystery.

  73. OH MY GOD. I HEARD YOUR PODCAST. HE HAD A MECHANISM HE USED TO BEND THE TIP OF THE GUN!! I SAW IT ONCE!! You saw it TWICE!! HELLOOOO???!!! He CLEARLY had a mechanism. He bent the tip of the gun with it AND grabbed on to the van and cut and dug into the VAN with it!! DAMN! Pay ATTENTION.

  74. Honestly my favorite part of the movie was the parking deck one with Scarecrow and the fake Batmen. That was so awesome and threw me for a loop for a sec when all the Batmen starting shooting guns. Loved it.

    I think what bothered me most was

    1. Needed more Two-Face. I didn’t fully believe in the Racheal, Harvey relationship so when he is supposed to snap and become to angry for her death and his scarring….I just didn’t fully believe that it made him that angry.

    2. Why the hell Batman beat the crap out of so many SWAT guys. Just tell them the hostages had clown suits on. Why go beat the shit out of the cops?

  75. i know i wanted the joker to win!! but hey great movie! my favorite part was the whole entire boat scene, that also included the building scene with joker and batman hen the joker almost falls. but john, about the last 30 mins, i thought it was perfect for the movie. but hey, you have you own opinion, and thats cool. i also thought the tunnel scne e with harvey in that police car was aweosme, second favorite scene. rememer guys he’s like “is this thing made for this” then the joker brings out like a rocket-launcher. this movie is the best ive ever seen. this is just my grade but 9.8/10. if scarecrow wasnt in there for the 1o seconds that he was, it would’ve been a 10

  76. This has been a really great discussion. I like this.

    You know, The Dark Knight has set itself up to where we got the answers, but leaves itself open for us to come up with our own conclusions. I’m not saying that counts with Two-Face, but we don’t know if the detonators would have blown up one boat or all of them, since Joker kept changing his “face-cut” story and tricked Batman to save Dent instead of Rachel.

    But, I will say this; Unlike Spider-Man 3, The Dark Knight actually had me convinced that Batman would lose, and that’s one of those things I wish more movies would have these days.

  77. I completely agree with Nova. I guess the point Im stressing is that we wont know until (if) part 3 is made. I do believe there is a hint of ambiguity in there though, possibly playing on the very idea of people debating whether or not hes dead. Its all in good fun.

  78. i finally got to see it the film, and to be honest you guys are right doug, jon

    i didnt like the ending at all.

    the part were the people where in the boat was fine one had to blow up the other to survive.

    its a shame that heath ledger past away. The only thing i can think of that would be a great ending is think it was you doug who said that the joker would put in arkham with a straitjacket.

    that would be a perfect ending. when batman starts leaving the cell the joker would say “i’ll see in couple of hours “…. hahahhahahah

  79. I agree with John about Dent being dead. Far as we know, for the purposes of that narrative, he is dead. Just because people come back from the dead in movies and comic books doesn’t mean he will. There’s nothing in the movie that remotely suggests the death was faked. But, if they wanted to bring him back for a sequel they could. John’s point is, we’re all so conditioned by characters coming back from the dead in these kinds of stories that it’s hard for us to believe they are dead. I think, for all intents and purposes, the chapter on Harvey Two-Face is closed. If the filmmakers retro-actively decide he’s NOT dead, then so be it. But that hasn’t happened yet.

  80. I agree that we are meant to believe he is dead, and in all likelyhood the script reads “Dent lies dead on the pavement”, BUT if they did want to bring him back in the future, there is enough there to explain away his survival and the cover up concerning his death.

    Perhaps he survives and Gordon is trying to keep it hush hush, but as time goes by word gets out that Gothams “White Knight” is indeed alive and locked up at Arkham. You could do something with that plot-wise.

  81. Sorry Kris, Dent is DEAD

    Once again I repeat, there is NOTHING in the movie that suggests Dent is alive. NOTHING.

    He Died

    The secret is just between Batman and Gordon

    If Dent was alive, the 50 cops who showed up would know

    If Dent was in Arkham the press would know, the inmates would know, the staff would know.

    If the funeral was “faked” then they could never allow Harvey his freedom again for the rest of his life because the public could never be allowed to know he was alive.

    Batman wouldn’t hold someone prisoner without the law and without a trial

    Batman had to run at the end because HE KILLED DENT and took the blame for the other stuff Dent did. If Dent wasn’t dead, the other cops wouldn’t have had to chase Batman would they?

    Sorry folks. I WISH Dent was alive, but he ain’t. Any suggestion otherwise goes against every fact in the movie and is pure speculation.

  82. I didn’t even know Two-Face died. I thought he was just knocked out. I also didn’t like the Two-Face storyline, and I thought they should have left him open for the third film. The boat scene was dumb and I wish the film didn’t spend as much time on it that it did. I give it a 8.5 out of 10 as well.

  83. man…you need to check the movie more than twice cuz you are missing shit like, for example, if they (gordon,batman) let the ppl of gotham know that harvey killed those 5 ppl (well…actually ramirez didnt die I think), then the joker would have win…they talk about it like twice and you didnt talk about it…also, he PUT A FUCKING GUN TO GORDON CHILD!!! yeah…ppl of gotham would have accept that right??? yeah…HE SHOT BATMAN!!! tell ppl of gotham that…and see what happen!!!

    the thing with the ferries was great and yeah, AS YOU CAN SEE IN THE MOVIE the prisioners wanted to push the buttom first…but, the police stop them with the gun shots…so dont say it wasnt realistic, because it was…

    have you seen that thing like a claw that batman uses at the beggining of the movie…that’s how he can bend a gun shot…watch it over, or get some of the DC direct toyz (one of them has this kind of claw) and you’ll see he use it to make more damage…

    btw great podcast, it was fun to listen, yeah the hong kong scene was the shit!!!, and the guy whos making the bale’s batman voice…TOP NOTCH!!! haha you nailed it great!!! god job gentlemen…

  84. I just read that Batman made 66 MILLION for friday. Thats crazy! Well lets see if it can keep its pace and beat the spidey record. I hope so. This is much better than that tobey shit

  85. Screw all y’alls this movie was the best superhero film since X2. 10/10. I don’t care about the running time 4 this movie. I don’t care about anyone’s opinion, this is the best of the year so far and so much better than Iron Man.

  86. Dammit John, Two Face is so not dead. It cracks me up that you desperately want to believe that, though, so you have the basis on which to hate the moment in the film.

    The two instances of falling and surviving a poster above mention is a clear parallel, I think, to indicate that he could survive the fall.

    By the way, the best way to preserve what Dent stood for, as well as his legacy, is for him to be dead to the public. So of course there’s a funeral scene.

    But you don’t really expect Nolan to lack the professionalism to allow the character to go out on more than the whimper we saw at the end of this film, do you?

    The original trilogy concocted by Nolan and Goyer (this has been widely reported — surprised you haven’t been privy) involved the Joker as the second film’s villain and Dent as the third film’s villain, with the Joker’s trial as a plot-point as well.

    Don’t be surprised if Dent shows back up, pal. And I swear I won’t say “I told you so” in three years.

  87. Fantastic movie.

    I can’t even stress how much I enjoyed that. I was worried about all the ridiculous praise and massive hype that I would end up disappointed..however, I was not.

    I enjoyed that movie than any super-hero/comic based movie that I have ever seen.

    My only gripe is with Batman’s voice for the most part. Although..when he was after Joker in the interrogation room..it was perfect.

    Great, great movie. Loved it.

  88. As if I didn’t type enough the first time. Another thought that came to mind about the length of the film. The reason I didn’t think it was too long is that if it were ended about 30mins earlier, you’d have a loose end or two with Two-Face, it wouldn’t have made the film bad but I prefer movies that don’t have an obvious to be continued type ending like Batman Begins. I want the main plots resolved and all characters accounted for. I feel the extra 30mins to conclude the Two-Face arc was necessary and brought the film’s themes together to a logical conclusion putting Batman in a position to make a tough choice with Gordon by taking the fall for Two Face as Harvey did for Batman earlier. This I thought was the most effective ending the film could’ve possibly had.

    If you want to talk about a story where it doesn’t end where it should look no further than the Lord of the Rings books. Frodo destroys the ring, end of story right? Wrong, there’s like another 100 pages or more after that (Thankfully Return of the King didn’t add that after ring nonsense which is why the films are better than the books).

  89. Hey Adam,

    That’s great optimistic thinking, but there is NOTHING to back that theory up. The secret is between Gordon and Batman. Harvey died… it was STUPID that they killed him, but he’s dead.

    IF they were letting all the cops who showed up in on the secret, then there wouldn’t have been any need for Batman to run at the end would there?

    Sorry man… he’s dead. I wish he wasn’t, but he is. There is NOTHING to suggest otherwise.

  90. JOHN JOHN JOHN! I know you believe that Harvey Dent is dead, but he isn’t. They would not waste a character like two-face. He was only two-face for twenty minutes and they certainly aren’t dumb enough to waste that. SO HERE IS WHAT MOST LIKELY HAPPENED… They put Harvey Dent in Arkham Asylum and faked his death so the city wouldn’t know the truth about how crazy he went. THAT IS WHAT HAPPENED!

  91. Okay, I am SO happy I saw this fuckin masterpiece last night cuz if I had come on here and seen that fuckin TOTAL spoiler picture of 2 FACE, I would’ve KILLED somebody. I mean, JESUS MAN, it’s only been a DAY since the movie premiered. Chill out. Wait at least passed this weekend before you start posting spoiler picks and shit.

  92. I thinking about it more, and you guys and myself are nitpicking parts and saying “This part is unrealistic,” “This part is illogical.” But when you start to think about it, almost everything is illogical. I guess, on some level, all movies are…

  93. Enough about two face

    I just heard the dark knight set a new one day box office record taking in 66.4 million

  94. YES TWO FACE IS DEAD

    He died from the fall. They had the funeral for him. There is NOTHING in the movie to even remotely suggest he was alive. NOTHING. Batman and Gordon decided to hide the TRUTH… not hide Harvey.

    Batman didn’t take Harvey’s “unconscious” body with him somewhere. The cops showed up, and Harvey was DEAD. PERIOD.

  95. I’d like to add that those who have watched the movie would have noticed in the (overly extended) finale (which went too long in my honest opinion) that Two Face was not killed. Batman was in a dilema as to if he should eliminate, or save and give the benefit of the doubt.

    Two Face was not killed off…which is good! So long as they dont waste a villain like they did with Scarecrow

  96. Great Podcast! I thought the Dark Knight was great for the first two hrs of it’s running time and at that point as good as any sequel ever made.Some air started ot come out of its tires in the last half hr when they try wrapping up the TWO-FACE story line. Personally I would have ended that story arc when he walks into the bar and continued it a llittle, but not a lot further in the 3rd film. Despite a bumpy last 30 minutes still a terrific movie overall! .

  97. The Batman voice is a little ridiculous but once you get sucked into the story it just kind of blends in. The only time I thought it stood out in a bad way was at the end after the fall and Batman and Gordon are talking. Batman is winded and also has a lispy thing going on with the growl and its kind of silly.

    I agree about Gotham being central to the story, it really is awesome how this story works on many different levels and from many different perspectives. You get a sense of what each part of the city is feeling, from the cops (clean and dirty) citizens, public officials, vigilantes and criminals. Truly great story telling.

  98. Guys, thanks for the podcast. It was great. I saw the movie in a regular theater first and really dug it, but found the scope of it almost too much to process at once. Then I saw it at IMAX and was just, overwhelmed, ha. the IMAX stuff was almost TOO good, because all I could think about was how awesome it was and forgot there was a movie going on. But I loved it.

    I thought all your criticisms are really valid. I didn’t agree with all of them, but at least completely get where you’re coming from with every one. I think all your suggestions would have made for a movie that was every bit as good, just different.

    The only one I want to offer any insight into was why Harvey went after Gordon’s family, because I think it does make total sense. Harvey had tried to convince Gordon that Wertz and Ramirez were dirty cops who didn’t belong on the force and shouldn’t be trusted. Gordon insisted they remain on his team, and then it was those two that delivered Harvey and Rachel to their respective bomb-filled warehouses. If Gordon had listened to Harvey, Rachel would still be alive.

    Yes, the Joker is what everyone will remember, but it’s not intended to be a Joker movie. It’s a Gotham movie. I loved the title of the film, but as I thought about it yesterday, I thought a more appropriate title would have been “Gotham Knight” or “City of Gotham”. Harvey’s rise and fall and what it means for the city’s future was essential in my mind, though I agree there are pacing problems with the final act of his story.

  99. The Dark Knight has surpassed Stars Wars midnight opening record.

    Now it has surpassed Spiderman 3’s first day opening record.

    (this is what I’ve read)

    YAAA! Biggest move ever!

  100. I can totally see now why you said the movie was too long. That being said, that movie was made of EPIC AWSOME! Question. After Bruce gave Harvey the choke hold, when he told Rachel to get out of there was he doing that in his “batman voice”? That would be awsome if it was cause it would show that even with Rachel who knew his identity he just automatically goes all batman.

  101. Hey Gio, don’t you think it’s a little inconsiderate to post pictures of Two Face right on the front page, above the fold, less than 24 hours after the film opened?

  102. Oh yeah, one more thing after all the positive reviews this film got, what’s with all the sudden negative reviews? Dave Kehr, Bob Cashill, Tom Long, and others just slammed it for being too dark and too stupid (all the white giving credit for Ledger’s performance).

  103. A stream of consciousness post after viewing completed film…

    I agree with the two-face part. He should not have been killed off in this film. It felt that it had a Venom-like/Spider-Man 3 quality to it. In this film, they should have just let two-face kill that tubby cop and THAT’S IT. I would have also liked it if they never showed dent’s scarred face UNTIL the part with the fat cop.

    I don’t agree with Doug about having a scene with Joker going to Arkham. I feel that it turns the film into the shitty Schumacher versions where all the villains just were brought into arkham at the end of both films that he directed.

    Ledger, of course, was simply magnificent as the Joker. Not for once did I think of Heath Ledger when watching him in the role.

    Thought that Scarecrow was a waste.

    The Nolans had some balls killing Dawes off. I was shocked and satisfied after her death.

    Didn’t like the sonar thing they used to find out where the Joker was but I began thinking what else could they use to find him? That thing on Batman’s eyes did look silly though. I don’t know why he couldn’t just turn the goddamn thing off.

    Felt that the ferry boat scene was important to the film as was the scenes in HK.

    Thought that the final speech by Gordon was awesome, completely awesome. It was like putting a stamp on a great film. Felt that the score in the sound mix was a bit high during this speech though.

    Not for once I felt this was a comic book movie, unlike Iron Man or Knight’s predecessor Batman Begins.

    It’s sad that we won’t see the Joker again. I really wanted him and Batman to do battle once more.

    I give The Dark Knight a 9.5 out of 10.

  104. First off you guys are great this is my first time ever listening to a podcast and y’all didn’t dissapoint. I totally agree with your criticisms, especially with your criticism of the ending. I personally would of rathered see the Joker fall to his death for the obvious reason that I do not believe anyone could ever top Heath Ledger’s role as the Joker. I also realize that you would of needed a soothsayer there telling Christopher Nolan about the death of Ledger. Also ending the movie with the death of Two-Face was weak, I totally agree that Two-Face fans got cheated out of a character. Great Podcast and I look forward to listening to many more….Greatest comic book movie ever!

  105. John did you ever think that maybe the ending became what it was, because of the death of ledger. Nolan could have thought that two face would have to end the movie because there would be no joker in the third. I do think that it is possible that Dent/two face isn’t dead. You see a memorial for Dent but that could be anything. It wasn’t a funeral. And unless you see the body go into the ground(unless its a zombie movie) there is always a possibility that he can be alive. Its a comic book movie. If soap operas can figure out how to bring back dead characters they can definitely do it in a comic film

  106. Okay not trying to start a new thread but, my favorite joker moment was, something that the writers should get credit for. Joker fucking with batman and giving him Dent’s location and not Dawes. When Batman opened the door it caught me completely off guard. Whoever is responsible for that little twist knew the joker character completely. It does add to the argument that the ferries if they pressed the button could have been blowing up both boats not just their own. Why will ledger get nominated because he knew exactly what the joker was inside and out! freaking awesome. What were some of your favorite joker surprises….. LOLOLOL

  107. As far as superhero movies this one is on a whole other level. What this film aims for and accomplishes makes it transcend the usual expectations of a superhero movie.

    This is a deep and a thought provoking film. I could analyze why the characters’ actions and motivations as well as the situations they find themselves in and what these situations say not only about the characters but about Gotham as a city and its people. By extension what this says about people in general. As others have said, the morality plays and the social commentary make this film above and beyond a superhero movie. It is simply a movie.

    After watching this film I was completely satisfied with it even if it didn’t meet all my expectations. What it set out to do it did so convincingly enough for me to accept its stretches of disbelief and flaws within the context of its own movie world.

    I did not feel it was too long at all. I was never bored, whatever was happening be it drama, light comedy or action was always compelling. In fact, I can’t really think of scene that should’ve been cut. Both Ledger & Eckart were mind blowingly amazing. Acting all around was solid although Eric Roberts was fairly pedestrian, not bad but not great. Then again, he didn’t really have much material to work with.

    It is not a perfect film. Although there is plenty of action to go with the drama I never felt that Batman was ever in serious physical danger. The danger if there ever was any was more in the decisions he had to make. I’m not sure if I’d say the action overall in this movie is better than the first but the fight scenes were definitely better in the first. I found a few action sequences a bit confusing. I wasn’t sure what the heck Batman was doing with his tumbler when the Joker was shooting bazookas out of the truck. I would think the tumbler would simply be able to take the truck out in the first place with all its fangled technology. Y’know shoot out the truck’s tires or something but what does Batman do with it? Use it to absorb some bazookas? I dunno. Having the motorcycle come out of the tumbler? Kinda stupid but then again I was never a fan of the tumbler and don’t think its design is real world practical at all. It was extremely cool how Batman did take out the truck on his motorbike afterwards. I didn’t think Gordon was really dead mainly because the film cuts so quick from the shooting. He was gone long enough for me to think it was a remote possibility and certainly I wasn’t expecting him to come back at the time he did but I was not surprised that he did come back.

    There are certain stretches in believability that are done in order to get the characters into certain circumstances but it is these circumstances that are so interesting and make you wonder what will happen, what will the characters do, how will they react? Even so these stretches are never used as a cheap or lazy way to move the plot along or resolve conflicts.

    The two boats scene was kinda silly but I understood what its purpose was. If you complain about that scene you might as well complain about the entire Joker character being able to pull off all these elaborate stunts with hired goons. I never thought of it at the time but the possibility that each boat in fact had its own detonator actually makes that scene even stronger. Heck maybe each detonator detonated both boats. The Joker gives two or three conflicting stories about his face scars. He doesn’t end up killing the mayor so whose to trust what he says and that’s what makes the Joker a great villain. You don’t know what to believe because he’s capable of anything but he’s not a glutton.

    Back to Two-Face. I wasn’t entirely convinced at his turn to evil, the acting was amazing but I found this was more a failing of the script. It seemed to me that all it took for Harvey to go over the edge was Rachel dying. I would’ve expected more than that but perhaps a second viewing of the film will reveal something else. How his face got burned was quite clever. I am also confused about whether Harvey/Two-Face died at the end or not. I thought he did, my friend thought he didn’t.

    In the context of the movie itself, it all works. It’s really more of a dramatic movie based on solid characters. It’s not a crowd pleaser popcorn flick like Iron Man or Spider-man. It’s not necessarily better than those movies but in my mind you shouldn’t even compare them. I feel that The Dark Knight shouldn’t even be compared to Batman Begins. It’s hard for me to explain but it would be like comparing a comedy to a drama that are each of equal quality. The aspects which defines each a success are completely different and sometimes at odds with each other.

    I’ve been careful to say this film goes above and beyond superhero movies. As far as comic book movies are concerned, Ghost World is one of the best as a film that can be taken seriously as art. I think The Dark Knight is the first superhero movie that can be taken seriously as art.

    Before I watched this film I was a bit annoyed that it didn’t have the world Batman in the title but I think I can understand why. I still think it should’ve had the name in it though just to be consistent in its naming. Ever heard the nintendo nerd complain about movie sequel names?

    I don’t know what story can be used to follow up this one. If Ledger was still alive, another Joker story could’ve fit the bill but I don’t think you can find an actor who can match his performance. I am not totally knowledgeable about Batman but as already mentioned, the only thing that could follow this up and even further explore the themes from this film would be to have Bane and Azriel.

    I can definitely see the influence of Batman Year One and The Long Halloween in this film and like the first movie it successfully put some new twists and variations on Batman’s early years.

  108. Yeah, apparently, it is part of the suit. It’s like a high pressure device in his glove that can crush objects. It was in the EW magazine.

  109. Two face CANT be dead~

    In the scene where batman interrogates the mob boss he throws him down like 3 stories and is clearly (and hilariously) still alive!
    &
    Batman while saving Rachael fall from the friggen penthouse onto a taxi hundreds of feet below and neither are seriously injured

    Just by these two occurrences its clear that two face is not only able to still be alive but his survival is almost foreshadowed buy the assumed death in addition to the contrary logic.

    The movie built up so much momentum that the storyline train ran off the tracks at the end but it still reached the station, even if it may have been screeching to a halt and took out the flexibility of the two face character in the process.

    Why so serious?

  110. Two face CANT be dead~

    In the scene where batman interrogates the mob boss he throws him down like 3 stories and is clearly (and hilariously) still alive!
    &
    Batman while saving Rachael fall from the friggen penthouse onto a taxi hundreds of feet below and neither are seriously injured

    just by these two occurrences its clear that two face is not only logically able to still be alive but his survival is almost foreshadowed buy the assumed death and contrary logic

    The movie built up so much momentum that the storyline train ran off the tracks at the end but it still reached the station, even if it may have been screeching to a halt and took out the flexibility of the two face character in the end.

    y so serious?

  111. I agree with many of the things that you guys said about the movie
    i thought that it was a [email protected] awsome movie and that heath ledger was amazing
    just one thing that i disagree with, the scene with scarecrow and batman bending the gun you said that batman couldnt do that and that is true Bruce couldnt do that but i thought that it was obvious that it was a part of that suits technology, but i guess i was wrong but for the most part i completely agree, and i would have given it a 9.0 as a movie

  112. And the boat scene. I would have loved to have seen one ferry blow up the other. That is reality. The Joker’s view is the truth. Batman’s view, that people have good in them is the false belief. “People will eat each other when faced with a dire situation.” That is the truth. Another WTF! moment.

  113. What baffles me about Chris Nolan is that he always emphasizes the notion of REALITY…THINGS HAVE TO BE REAL in order for people to take the story seriously and not disconnect from it.

    This notion of reality is present in ‘Memento’, ‘Insomnia’, and to a lesser extent ‘The Prestige.’ Yes, ‘The Prestige’ was a little out there, but it was aesthetically consistent. WE knew from the start of that movie that it would be sci-fi. And it kept a realistic tone. One of the things that bugged me about ‘Batman Begins’ was the fact that the first and second act were grounded in this gritty reality, and then in the third act there’s a microwave emitter, etc. which took it into a completely unrealistic world. And it bugged the fuck out of me!

    The Dark Knight does this again. Awesome first two hours! I was like “This is the movie I wanted to see made. I’m watching it!”. Then the last 20 minutes or so: I see a fucking blue screen which looks like a bad video game; SONAR MAPPING?! WTF?! A prisoner throwing a detonator off the boat? Harvey Dent wanting to kill Gordon’s son????? WHAT. IN. THE. FUCK. I wish I was as forgiving as you guys, but those things ruined the film completely for me. It seemed like a complete mess. I can’t believe Nolan didn’t see how god awful that CGI looked with the sonar mapping thing. Was he high?

  114. I disagree with the flaws mentioned; I liked those plot points in the movie. If there was one thing that I feel they missed out on, its the boat scene: I think someone should have said, “What if the Joker is lying? What if we blow up our own ship?”, because I was thinking the Joker had to screw around to see who would be really selfish.

    As for Two-Face, I would be all for seeing him return for the next movie. However, I also believed Doc Ock could still be alive after Spider-Man 2, and that never caught on. Still, I think Nolan could do more with Two-Face if he sees the potential for that to happen in a 3rd movie. Overall, it was a great film.

    With that said, I won’t go into any details, but I will say this…

    THEY HAVE A PERFECT SETUP FOR A GODDAMN BATMAN VS. SUPERMAN MOVIE!

    Seriously, I know you guys weren’t happy about Batman making himself Gotham’s #1 target at the end, but that could be a great setup to have the cops fail at catching Batman, then Superman would rise to the challenge of stopping Batman. That is an epic event begging to happen. I think we are close, but it sucks to know that there hasn’t been any solid developments for a Man of Steel movie, and as far as I know, Nolan hasn’t made any plans for what a 3rd Batman film should be.

    Opportunity is knocking to really build up a Batman vs. Superman film, and I have a really shitty feeling that chances are, no one will take that advantage.

  115. I like don’t like how Two-faced died, but I see why. I saw him as almost a Shakespearean tragedy in this movie, more so than in the comic.

    The boat scene was fine, I wished the Joker’s view was right though, but hey, I can even see it, “nobody want the dirt on their hands,”

    Hong Kong scene was awesome!

    Scarecrow didn’t bother me.
    All of the acting was perfect, and Heath Ledger was amazing
    I don’t see anything wrong with it imo, best film of the year, so far.

  116. aaron, you are right. it was built up so much in the trailer and it looked like the final big battle sequence. When Batman and Joker came face to face, it just ended immediately. I didn’t even realize that till now. but the scenes that followed with joker in custody were mindblowing. At the end of it, the scene where Joker sticks his head outside the cop car savoring his triumph with the background music fading away to silence. One of the cinematic moments, I will remember forever. That was viciously beautiful!

    My favorite Joker lines are……….

    “Why don’t we cut you up into little pieces and feed you to your pooches? Hmm? And then we’ll see how loyal a hungry dog really is.”

    “This is what happens when an unstoppable force meets an immovable object.”

    And the brilliant ……. “you complete me”

    Heath nailed it!

  117. John, I have to say that having just seen the movie, that it IS that good. This film had so much depth, so much imagery, social commentary, humor, action and BALLS that I really dont know what else you could ask for from a story.

    Ledger is so amazing that its depressing. Tomorrow he would have woken up and been the biggest star in the world, instead hes in a box six feet under. He really was incredible. The whole cast was great IMO, even Eric Roberts.

    The first rule in films is you can never assume anyone is dead, so I will lean towards Two-Face being alive, I mean Batman survived pretty much the same fall without so much as a sprain.

    The Jokers line that “we are just destined to do this forever” was awesome.

    Now Im just rambling, but I give this flick a 10, I was going to give it a 9.5 because no film is perfect, but I just liked it more than a 9.5 and I really dont feel bad about giving it a 10. There is nothing I would change about this movie except Ledgers death so we could maybe see his Joker again in part 3. Thats the only bad thing about this film.

  118. Just saw and loved the whole thing.
    was a little concerned about everything after they caught the Joker for the second time but Gordons speech brought the whole thing together.

    when he called him the dark knight….wow

  119. roshan, i agree with you. it is also the quickest 2 and a half hours a have ever spent in the movies! it was soooo beyond great. words can’t describe it. one thing i cant understand though, why was there hype about the batman joker fight (you know the one in the trailer) when it was like 2 minutes, and i dont mean the tunnel scene, the one after it where batman and joker go at it for like 2 mins. it was a good scene, but all in all, i loved it!!!! my favorite line from the joker was “in people’s final moments, you see who they really are”. it freaking kicks iron man! it is sooo great!!

  120. I saw TDK today @12:05AM And I f***ing loved the movie like anything.

    I thought the whole movie was perfect. Normally I agree with Doug and John’s opinions about the movies. But this time, it’s quite different. I don’t agree with the small issues, you have pointed out. I felt every little scene in the movie was there for a reason. If you take them out, I don’t see the continuity.

    I too believe Two Face is still alive. And I just loved the way the movie ended. With Batman taking all the blame to save Dent’s dream and bring back hope to Gotham city. Also if he hasn’t taken the blame, Joker and his ideology would have won. I thought it made perfect sense.

    Overall I believe everyone is more than satisfied with the movie. And Heath has won all our hearts. The whole day, I was just discussing with my colleagues about the Joker’s characterization and his wicked dialogues.

    About the movie watching experience – The movie started with the huge applause and ended with a standing ovation. I never have had a movie watching experience like this, in my life. Fans were in to the movie hall, from yesterday around 11PM itself, for the 12:05AM show. Few of them were dressed in Joker costumes. It’s the best 2 hours 32 minutes I have spent for any movie. I’m not exaggerating. I really had a wonderful time. Wow, it was just a great day!

  121. Did anyone catch that Easter Egg when Harvey Two-Face threatens Gordon’s family and as he swipes the son away…you see briefly in Mrs. Gordon’s arms… a daughter.

    As to the question of the next villain. I haven’t the foggiest. But I can say without a doubt there is a line in the film meant as a joke by Lucious Fox regarding the new Batsuit. It would not surprise me in the least if the buzz started on Catwoman.

    OR

    Much was made about “Batman” impersonators/wannabes.
    Whatcha think? Real deal next time? Azazel?

    I was surprised to find Batman taking down Scarecrow. In Gio’s early review, he said “the cops” made the bust. But yes, Scarecrow was a waste. I would have liked it to be another Bat-thug if it was going to be that brief. Hell, I would have accepted Maxie Zeus or The Ventriloquist for as brief that was.

    I didn’t have a problem with Eric Roberts.

    The Hong Kong thing was fine, but *I* would have re-edited or scaled back the death of Gamble. Heath may have been chameleon in character, but I cringed at the character coming out of the body bag. Otherwise I really thought Ledger was really good. Oscar buzz? I can see it. But I would not overshadow Eckhart as Dent/Two Face either.

    By the way…

    Katie Who?

    *is Two-Face dead? I don’t want him to be, I would have wished he was saved up more for #3, but y’know what? It’s a moot point. Dent was also slightly sucidal, (as Two Face he also blamed himself) and given the extent of his facial injuries, I would think he’d buy it in a short time anyway.

    Of course, let’s say for the sake of devils advocate he did live. What would they do with him, exactly? The agreement was to make it look like he died in the hospital explosion (with only the Joker and a corrupt officer knowing the truth) and that Batman would be blamed for some of the deaths of the mobsters and corrupt officers (although it could be argued that a “copycat” Batman may have been part of this) …

    Would they trust Dent, had he lived? He would be even more deadly, being an outcast, being presumed dead etc. Would they lock him up? What if he had surgery, and became (for a short time) a productive member of society again?

    Look—they have Dent’s body. They don’t have Ras Al Ghul’s.
    But we accept Ras is gone. Right?

    Katie Who?

    Hey, I’m one of the few who liked what’s her chimpmunk face in “Begins”. Maggie is 100% better. And *she* should get an Oscar nom. (Note: why do I think that when the character faces doom that some folks WISHED for whatshername…anyway…)

    As for the surprise of Gordon’s death…I didn’t buy it either at first but as the scenes progressed, I thought, ‘there’s a possbility that lines/scenes were made up for a trailer. Indeed, some of Joker’s lines were said in different points of the film (“Why So Serious” “Lets Put A Smile On That Face!”) and I recall X2, where early movie stills of that film suggested Jean Grey didn’t die in that film. Even in ‘Executive Decision’ a shot in the trailer was made up for the trailer where it looked like Steven Seagal was on the plane before Kurt Russell.

    So…I actually was let down a slight bit when Gordon was revealed to be alive. (A ton of faked deaths in this movie lol!) because I thought it took serious bat balls to pull such a twist.

    Yes, the film is too long. But I’ll say this:
    I sure hell loved it better than….that other film with Morgan Freeman from a few weeks back.

    ********

    The more I think it over? I DO want to see Bane and/or Azarel (Jean Paul Valley) in the third entry should there be one.

    Should?

    Yes, int’l friends. You heard me and I won’t take it back. While $$ talks and BS walks, it will be really tough to top this. Who can play Joker after Ledger? We don’t want this franchise to get sour.

    On the other side of the sword, if it is the end, WB will curse us with that JLA trash again…

  122. i loved it sooo much! but there was a spoiler in the trailer. remember when in the trailer it shows harvey with the gun in the car, and they had to choose between racheal and him? well, we knew who would be picked. but ledger freaking owns!!!! it was great

  123. I certainly hope he lives. He needs to be the next baddy for the follow up. I loved the set up for the character, just wished they would have left his revenge for the next installment.

    The scene with him and the mob boss in the car would have been a bitchin’ way to start the next film.

  124. how do you know that two face is dead?

    he’s not. you can’t just kill a major viallin by falling three stories

    he’s coming back

  125. Dudes. Two Face isn’t toast. (Nor is Ra’s if you ask me, but hey…)

    And bingo, Kyle. The phone thing is a total comic book moment with echoes of Oracle, but it’s also a slap in the face to the Patriot Act.

  126. Just want to comment on the cell phone thing. I think its not so much about sonar as it is about as a metaphor for post 9/11 Home Land Security stuff.

  127. 1 – Yes, Two face/Harvey is dead
    2 – Yes, the boat scene was stupid as hell
    3 – Yes, bending the gun with one hand was stupid. Batman’s outfit is not robotic

    4 – I think the Hong Kong scene should have been taken out
    5 – No, Eric Roberts wasn’t bad
    6 – No, having Scarecrow wasn’t a waste

    Excellent podcast guys!

  128. Here’s something interesting: When I went to see it in the theaters today, my theater is Westminster suddenley became the Dark Knight town. They took old posters from last year’s movies and put them in the coming attractions/now playing boxes, like Chuck and Larry, Lions for Lambs, etc., and graffiti-ed them to look like the Joker drew them. I thought that was brilliant. I shoulda gotten a picture. Did that happen to anyone else’s movie theater?

  129. Sir Jig alot makes a good point.

    Harvey is dead for sure. It shows his memorial in the movie. But i do get the feeling Two face is still alive.

  130. And UGH! Sorry, as I’m listening, I’m commenting. But your take on the very end of the film proves that you don’t get the character. The people don’t love the Batman. They wanted him to turn himself in! He’s an outlaw and they wanted Harvey Dent to bring him to justice.

    The entire closing soliloquy sums up the point of the scene. He is, as Gordon says, what Gotham needs him to be. If he needs to be a wraith, an ambiguous hero who apparently might just be willing to kill to subvert chaos, then so be it.

    Perfect final scene. Just perfect.

    That said, I agree with the poster who has issue with the growl. It’s something that has bothered me since the first film and I just haven’t wanted to say it, but it’s a but much, for sure. Nice impression.

    We’ll talk.

  131. About your complaints: Scarecrow IS a common punk. but he’s a prominent one. If you had a generic thug, THEN it wouldn’t have made as much sense. The scene was essential to show that Scarecrow doesn’t phase him any more. He’s small time. There needs to be a bigger villain than Scarecrow to take on Batman this time around, and that villain is the Joker. It sets that up perfectly. It also sets up the Batman impersonators, the dogs, the need for a new suit. All that too.

    the Joker showed up at Wayne’s place because Dent was supposed to be at the party, and Wayne wasn’t ready to be in action as Batman. He was being Wayne for the party. However, without the party, he’s ready to protect Rachel. He didn’t have to be Wayne that night. The penthouse wouldn’t be vulnerable anymore. He could be ready as Batman. You guys didn’t seem to catch that.

    About the boat – no one on either boat knew whether the switch actually blew up the boat. IT COULD HAVE BLOWN UP THE BOAT THEY WERE ON. That was the duality at stake. The triggers could’ve blown up the boat they were on and the other boat would take the fall. that was a possibility. That’s the tension there. You missed that, my man.Totally epic tension in that scene.

    And if you don’t like the Two Face ending….I’m sorry, there’s no hope for you.that ending was every flavor of epic. Nolan said from the start, he was gonna pull no punches. You want him to save Two Face for the next film? No. this is Dent’s film as much as it’s Wayne, or Gordon’s, or the joker. If you don’t understand what Dent’s actions meant in relation to the Joker’s purpose in the film, then there’s no hope. If they held back on Two Face, then it’d be a waste of having Dent in the film. This final scene was so pulse poundingly incredible…it’s just i don’t understand how you don’t understand what the meaning was behind all that. You guys are the only ones I’ve ever meant, internet or in real life, who weren’t satisfied with Two Face. I know several people who fucking LOVE Two Face and this film blew them away. I’m just gonna end it there. Nothing left to be said.

    People don’t love the Batman. They hate him. They hated him for not taking off the mask. They hate him for forcing the joker to blow up the hospital. they hated him all along. You didn’t understand this at all. Dent was the ultimate hero to Gotham. Uncorruptable. The batman was the lesser, necessary evil to the people of Gotham. If the people of Gotham saw their most uncorruptable shining example of law and justice be fracture by mad man, the people would lose their shit.
    It’s like how the Joker talked about deaths with Two Face. Soldiers in Iraq – people don’t see it, it’s all part of the plan. If the mayor dies though, that’s a face – people lose their minds. Joker’s practically a sociologist. If the batman is the bad guy (the soldier), people can handle that. Dent though? The very face of Justice in Gotham? People would go apeshit. They’re both symbols, but Dent was the one people actually gave a damn about.This totally flew over your head. Sorry.

    Everything else, down to the barrel bend, I agree with. good podcast, but guys, please think about these negatives a little more.

  132. And they didn’t fucking kill Two Face, John. He’s alive. His tragedy — the entire arc of the film that matters — came to a close. He was forced to kill, to subvert the justice he stood for. And now he’s likely going to be put in the nut house. But he’s not dead. He’s the villain of the third film.

    The passion behind the stuff you guys hated, I have to say, makes it sound like all of the positive stuff is apologetic and untrue. You sure you liked this movie?

  133. John,
    You can’t trust the Joker, I am almost positive that each boat had the detenator for their boat and not has the Joker said the detenator for the other boat. That is why he was expecting both ships to blow up.

  134. Thanks for the podcast lads.

    Campea,you are being too nitpicky with the boat scenario. Nolan was just making with a morality play which fits in with the film’s overall themes. nothing more.

    Douglas, I agree with you the film should have ended with Joker dangling, then cut to a Arkham scene with him howling away all straightjacketed in a cell. then cut to a coin being flipped & Two Face catching it while standing over some bodies. cut to credits

    For the record guys, it was never clearley established that Two Face is dead. he could have been unconscious or in a coma.
    The only person dead for certain is Harvey Dent as we knew him.

  135. Yeah, he used something to bend the barrel, John. The Batman is about theatricality, after all.

    The ferry boats scene was the beating fucking heart of the film, are you kidding me! If you hated that sequence, I would venture to say the point of the movie washed over you. Doug nailed it in his rebuttal.

    And it isn’t flying in the face of reality (hyper-reality, that is, which is more accurate). This is the point of the franchise. Personally, it brought a tear to my eye. It was the perfect way to show the city had a glimmer of hope and maybe — just maybe — can do without the Batman……someday.

    This is the point of the film. “Ruined it all?” “Throwing fiction into it all?” Surprised to hear you say all of that, to be honest.

    The Hong Kong sequence was awesome, Doug. Shut your pie hole!! :)

    You and I are going to go into the night with a bottle on this film, I can just tell, you ornery bastards.

  136. I might be one of the few people that instantly knew Gordon wasn’t actually dead, mainly because I remembered in the original trailers they have that scene where Gordon does the “nothing in his pocket but knives and lint” line, and that hadn’t come up yet, was kind of an easy one for me to instantly spot.

  137. John, about the bending of the barrel thing.
    If you look at batmans hand after he bent the gun, he shows he has this mechanical vice grip thing in his hand… Im not justifying the scene because i thought it was extreamly dumb, but there you go.

    I agree with the ferry boats, it seemed more like a saw scene then a batman scene and it was just retarted.

    I total agree with doug about Twoface and the end.I actually thought from the boat scene on was etreamly dumb.

    Overall i thought ledgers performance was chilling!! and christian bale made bruce wanye look like a bad ass!
    Great Great movie overall!

  138. one of the complaints i hear is that the villain is more interesting than the hero. I think that’s true for the original batman series too. Ebert has said they could put anyone in the batsuit, just because they hire guys based on just their mouth.

  139. Hey John

    When Batman bends the barrel of the shotgun he did it with the help of the mechanical grip like thingies on his hand. you can even hear the machine noise when he does it.

    However the “real” batman from the comic books CAN bend shotgun barrels but not the movie batman.

  140. John, you sound EXACTLY like bale when he is attempting his deep voice. I have to say just like in Batman begins, i LAUGH when bale talks like that. that would be my one nit pick for these movies, bale cant do a deep voice.

  141. Cut out the Hong Kong sequence – this is the poster child for extended scenes that belong on a DVD – and the movie would not be changed one iota. It would have played out 15 minutes shorter and would have been made for a tighter and leaner movie.

    Eckhart impressed me more than Ledger did.

    Great flick though. I’d give a 8.5 out of 10 as well.

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